You are talking like type 2 is the only format worth playing which is nonsense. Type 2, known as standard for those who dont know, is a pretty crap way to limit yourself. Like AnonBro so kindly pointed out, play vintage. Or one of the other dozen formats....
Poker Chess Magic The Gathering Baccarat
Sort:
Nowadays that might be. But when type 2 was introduced, it was the only format with official tournaments. (Type 1 had no tournaments)
I suspected that might be case (but never let that stop an opinion online!) but didnt start with mtg till 2004 - chess consumed me till then, to my reluctant regret.
Tapani wrote:
varelse1 wrote:
Of course they did.
That is to hook more players, so they will spend more later.
I figured out their game. Which is why I abandoned MTG early.
Same here.
They introduced type 2 sometime after ice age -- and before i got most playable cards in ice age + alliances + homelands, they already had released visions and mirage. And the cards I was chasing, were no longer tournament legal. (Back then you could not buy individual cards in a reliable way -- you had to trade for them or buy a lot of boosters).
They had Vintage and Legacy tournaments back in the 1990s as well. I played in some in 1996
Legacy known as Type 1.5 and Vintage known as Type 1 and Draft known as Type 0
Sep 7, 2014
0
#86
No one ever maxed out their credit card buying a Steve Jackson game.
He never intended to rob everybody blind and move to Argentina. He just turns out goid, creative games, at a small profit. He keeps food on his table, without taking food off anybody elses table.
WotC could learn a lesson from him.
chess wins
Ahhh Steve Jackson - to be forgiven for the original "pick your path" type books and lauded for the little mini board games pitting aliens against crew and the like.
Any preference for games aside, anyone who maxes out their credit card over a game is lacking something in themselves. You know your friend yet you present him as a paragon struck down by the evil corporation. We do not know your friend but instead, in defence of a fair argument alone, must then criticise him? Look to your own judgment of him - nobody forced him to spend the money.
Sep 7, 2014
0
#90
Yes.
The same people that came out with D&D 3, then made tiny adjustments, and reissued everything as D&D 3.5, to sell everybody the same books they just bought a couple months ago.
This is becoming a pattern with WotC
I only knew D&D when it was TSR that owned it and it was a cash cow then. The pattern was set in that game long ago. Lets take other games then - world of warcraft where a static fee each month is paid with nothing to show for it. Membership of any number of clubs or activities that require equipment - golf/mountaineering/cycling. You can spend thousands easily if you choose - its your hobby, its your disposable income. We are debating someones decision (their own) to max 2 credit cards in a world where many people dont have clean drinking water.
Sep 7, 2014
0
#92
Here_Is_Plenty wrote:
Any preference for games aside, anyone who maxes out their credit card over a game is lacking something in themselves. You know your friend yet you present him as a paragon struck down by the evil corporation. We do not know your friend but instead, in defence of a fair argument alone, must then criticise him? Look to your own judgment of him - nobody forced him to spend the money.
.
This arguement has been used by con-men and shuysters since the invention of currency.
Just because the buyer is at fault, doesn't mean the seller magically isn't.
I disagree. If they came to his door and pressured him when he was vulnerable or enticed otherwise then you would be able to make such comparisons. They simply print cards. They are not involved in the secondary singles market, since federal law prohibits it. The market forces are a result of people wanting the same cards as others do - how then is that set by wotc? They have never misrepresented what they do - they make a rotating product. There are eternal formats as observed. There is no stockbroker to convince him. Conmen and shysters directly engage with the mark - they just stick random cards in little packets. Who exactly convinced him he should try, on his own, to be a pro mtg player? Who then convinced him to spend money on it that he could not afford? Who forced him to go through with this foolish line of thought? After maxing one card, what pressure was put on him to max another? Please, we are mostly adults here - do not insult our intelligence.
Sep 7, 2014
0
#94
That point has some validity
It would be more valid, if we were talking about an isolated incident.
.
Now, WotC can put on their halos, and say"Well, this can happen to ANY gaming company!"
But as I pointed out before, it never happened with Steve Jackson.
And many other honest game designers I could list.
wotC was never forced at gunpoint to be this way. They made an intentional decision.
Writers write new books. Game companies print expansion sets. The TCG is exactly that - a Trading Card Game. Wotc invented the genre. Steve Jackson experimented with many formats of games and I could worship the guy - he made my teenage years in the 80s richer. So having invented a trading card game, are they supposed to not add expansions? The fact that people went on to take it really seriously surprised them or they would have stockpiled sets of alpha for later discovery. The very design of the core game led to the printing of sets. Now look at the eternal formats where rotation does not affect it - bans keep having to happen as the many interactions generate "broken" combos. In a situation without rotation, it would be Yugioh. Mtg is smoothly designed for rotating and each cycle can cope better with a shifting metagame. Remember mrd in 2004 and how chk had to bring in emergency cards to deal with it? How serious are affinity and the like in eternal formats? In standard one card or sequence of cards can unbalance everything. If you dont rotate then you have massive amounts of cards that need to be banned from all games and less design space to use since you have to worry about interactions more. Again, "a fool and his money are easily parted" - I am one of those fools but if it was not mtg then it would be something else.
How is WotC at fault for someone maxing out credit cards. It's the same scenario about blaming casinos for people maxing out their credit cards, etc.
Sep 9, 2014
0
#97
Jion_Wansu wrote:
How is WotC at fault for someone maxing out credit cards. It's the same scenario about blaming casinos for people maxing out their credit cards, etc.
Casinos are for adults; kids and adolescents aren't allowed to play. OTOH, WotC's MtG is focused on kids, teenagers and young adults, i.e. naive unemployed students without regular source of income.
Casino play doesn't require any investments beforehand, you take your money and just play. In MtG, you must spend money to build your deck first.
In classic roulette, the house odds are 2.7% against the player. WotC brings home much higher % of overall money spent by MtG players.
WotC promotes rotating and limited formats, causing young naive kids spend money and end up with box full of worthless crappy cards after each rotation.
WotC deliberately undermines deckbuilding creativity in fun casual and eternal formats by power-creep and printing poorly designed, idiotically overpowered "bombs" as "mythic" rares.
Can anyone tell me wtf this Discussion is about?lol
Polar, I appreciate the points you are trying to make. There are a few flaws in that, though. Competent players will manage resources (not financial but in-game) much better - even with identical decks, a top player will win a massive ratio against even a competent one. Players quickly learn that they are beaten by strategies and archetypes. A few mythics will not make that much difference. Given that decks are not just random collections of mythics, themes count far more than bombs. Any balanced deck will by force have a mix of rarities. Ever try to make a deck of all mythics? My friend did for a laugh and it was awful. The comparison with casinos is appropriate - you do not walk in to gamble in a casino for the first time - you play either online or in groups of friends first and develop your own notions of gambling. Like with chess, the equivalent of the developed deck is the matrix of knowledge and assumptions that you bring to the table. Is your first deck you build or play with a pro tour deck? For me it was a random work colleague who brought in 2 crappy decks he had made himself and we messed around with them - if you have the feel for it you instantly make connections and draw your own conclusions about building. Starter decks are designed to do exactly that. Students are not stupid - they may be naiive but they would still recognise that there is a vast knowledge bank to explore. Are they people that instantly go "Oh I play this sideboard...." and then wonder why when in middle of a 2/3 match? No, they look at why those cards are there in a list. Win or lose, the players who even buy top cards when in standard (new release) get fun with them and keep them - this is not just pure profit for company - they have spent time and money developing and testing the ideas. Each card has a writer and an artist and a director that oversees the production and fit in the set, format and overall meta. If you dont dig the flavour of mtg then you wont play for long. So lets just assume since you mention fun, casual and eternal that you are not buying standard cards - standard ones seldom do well in eternal formats, casual groups are fine to play jank in and fun is what you make it. If you are with friends then does it matter if you bring elves or domain? Powercreep - not that old chestnut. Lets just look again at Alpha/beta/revised - power 9, dual lands that come in untapped - really, you want to talk about power creep? Take your average standard or even modern deck into vintage or legacy and see how long it lasts. Sure you may not like mythics but they arent that expensive for most and the good ones still lose to a simple mana leak (common) mostly. They made the gods as enchant creatures but they also put swan song and annul in standard as 1 mana counters to deal with them. There are a few cards that exile enchants in standard. Think that is coincidence? Wotc have learned to build answers in at all rarities. So you acknowledge that creative deckbuilding has a place - great. Now also add that it should be competent, balanced and reflect the metagame it fits into.
Sep 10, 2014
0
#100
OK, but let me add a few more points:
1) Net-decking: have you ever heard that? 90% players do not explore card interactions, but copy finished decklists from the web, only the less lazy ones test and employ some minor changes. Kids do not want to build casual decks themselves, they want to buy cards and put the pro-tour netdeck together.
2) A/B/U/R: Ancient super-power cards came into existence by mistake when designers didn't understand the game concepts themselves enough, and also by original intention to make players build their decks step-by-step by trading and playing for ante. These cards were not designed for tournament play. Vintage is format for older nuts who happen to own them, but these cards are virtually non-existent on the market and totally unavailable for young players without huge income. The number of these cards printed is just far far smaller than number of MtG players.
3) OTOH, there were several Oops! - horrible design mistakes later, when authors were expected to understand the game and do their homework: Urza block untap spells (together with T. Academy, Time Spiral, Yawgmoth's Will and Memory Jar - yummy), Storm mechanics (with such interesting interpretation that, unlike other similar mechanics Buyback and Kicker, Storm triggers even when the spell doesn't resolve) and Mirrodin Affinity mechanics (btw with Ravager and Skullclamp).
4) After that WotC employed some idiot Timmy/Spike hybrid as designer, or just they have secret agenda to mock deckbuilders and players. To understand that, we need to compare a few ancient cards with their newer counterparts: Colossus of Sardia vs Emrakul (or Darksteel/Blightsteel Colossus), Lord of the Pit vs Griselbrand, Phyrexian Negator vs Phyrexian Obliterator, Elder Land Wurm vs Eternal Dragon... See the difference? The older cards required skill to build a deck around them and accurate play with risk included to perform well, the newer are just stupidly powerful, protected and perform themselves.
Of course they did.
That is to hook more players, so they will spend more later.
I figured out their game. Which is why I abandoned MTG early.
Same here.
They introduced type 2 sometime after ice age -- and before i got most playable cards in ice age + alliances + homelands, they already had released visions and mirage. And the cards I was chasing, were no longer tournament legal. (Back then you could not buy individual cards in a reliable way -- you had to trade for them or buy a lot of boosters).