the second position is also a win for white: the black king does not reach the 'saving' corner h1.
"I can't believe it's not winning!"
Sort:
White wins in BOTH positions.
pfren wrote:
Cogwheel wrote:
You're absolutely right, 1st is an easy win for white after d4!, according to Rybka.
He obviously set the diagram wrongly. Try again with a Black king on c5.
Do you really care what Rybka says? What do your brains say about it?
+1 to the man who always puts the integrity of chess before the hubris of enthusiasts.
schlechter55 wrote:
the second position is also a win for white: the black king does not reach the 'saving' corner h1.
You are right in that line.
I was wrong about why, but I think black draws the second position(things moved right). Black gives up the far pawn and can keep the white king in opposition. If the pawn ever runs then black goes and gets it and draws the KPvK. The first position is winning since white has room to infiltrate on the kingside once black tries to take up opposition
Randomemory wrote:
Here is a curious case that I came up with.
Can you determine which of the two is winning, and which is drawing? Notice that all I did was slide the 1st board over one column to make the 2nd position appear. Once you understand why which one is the draw, and which one is the win, you'll be like it's so obvious.
Yeah, the bishop pawn gives the drawing chances. If you're telling me one of them is a draw then you're right it's pretty obvious :)
Apr 27, 2013
0
#47
@Thrillerfan, #12. That are three basic, yet complicated diagrams for me.
In the third diagram I see
I will post this one now, because the other two take me too much time.
Apr 27, 2013
0
#48
This is the second diagram. I think white wins this one. I saw the winning variant (at least what I think is winning) first as a side line of the main variant. Obviously it should not be, but otherwise would I have to rewrite the pgn-file.
Frootloop2 wrote:
schlechter55 wrote:
the second position is also a win for white: the black king does not reach the 'saving' corner h1.
You are right in that line.
I was wrong about why, but I think black draws the second position(things moved right). Black gives up the far pawn and can keep the white king in opposition. If the pawn ever runs then black goes and gets it and draws the KPvK. The first position is winning since white has room to infiltrate on the kingside once black tries to take up opposition
No. I gave the reason why. White wins.
Here's sample lines showing what Frootloop2 said. The second position is a draw (verified by tablebases):
and white wins the first position:
the first position in the post is non-trivial it would take upwards of 13 move analysis and at least 3 or 4 variations to prove that it's a draw. i have seen many examples likee this in dvoretsky and i tell you they are far more complex than they seem. even grandmasters blunder in 'such' positions though they would probably not blunder in this particular one.
LoekBergman wrote:
@Thrillerfan, #12. That are three basic, yet complicated diagrams for me.
In the third diagram I see
I will post this one now, because the other two take me too much time.
It s not a theoritical win, its a certain win for white. Black has some traps to draw the game but if white plays correctly he wins.
both positions (one of them shifted by one column to the right) are a win for white, and IT IS easy, IF you know how to win with a Queen against a pawn. The fact that in the second position the pawn is on the f-file does not help the weaker side, because the king does not reach h1.
I can totally relate to your frustration and disappointment Randomemory, I have in the past sometimes found myself lost in thought and in utter awe trying to understand how I failed to take full advantage of a dominant position in the end games 
.
Can't be great at everything in life 
"I can't believe it's not winning!"
True, also...
"I can't believe it's not butter..."
schlechter55 wrote:
both positions (one of them shifted by one column to the right) are a win for white, and IT IS easy, IF you know how to win with a Queen against a pawn. The fact that in the second position the pawn is on the f-file does not help the weaker side, because the king does not reach h1.
You are right that the line where black allows white to queen is winning for white. However, black can draw by keeping opposition against the distant white king while remaining in range of the white pawn. The white king can never make progress towards capturing the black pawn, and running his passed pawn ends in a drawn KPvK endgame once it is caught.
In the position farther left, white is able to break this opposition by infiltrating the kingside where white's pawns help eliminate squares from the black king instead of the other way around. In the farther right position there is just no room for this.
http://www.k4it.de/?topic=egtb&lang=en
play around with the positions in a tablebase if you need convincing.
Apr 27, 2013
0
#57
@didimos: yes, I have read too that it is a win, but have read as well that it appears to be that the road to winning is not learnable by a human, see this old thread:
http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/kq-vs-kr-ending
and this blog about complexity of the subject:
http://burncastleburn.blogspot.nl/2008/08/kqkr-mating-tutorial-part-1-philidors.html
I had it once. I had the queen. Couldn't get it done.
LoekBergman wrote:
@Thrillerfan, #12. That are three basic, yet complicated diagrams for me.
In the third diagram I see
I will post this one now, because the other two take me too much time.
and Qe8 wins it for white instantly
TBentley wrote:
Here's sample lines showing what Frootloop2 said. The second position is a draw (verified by tablebases):
and white wins the first position:
this surprised me really ! But it is true. Thank you.
------------------
But anyway, the other example, (all one column to the left) is winning for white.
The difference is that in the first case the white king cannot pass from the king side, but in the second case he can (one column more space for him to do it).
The general thumbnail, that a defended passed pawn is stronger than any isolated pawn (provided the king is within the square of coronation) remains true, anyway.
The idea is that once the white king is distracted to the far queenside, black can capture the blocked white pawn and get his f pawn to the 2nd rank which draws. In the other example black's pawn is on the e file which loses