Road to Grandmaster

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gorgeous_vulture
chessroboto wrote:
NickYoung5 wrote:
IMCheap wrote:
kinderchocolate wrote:

I personally think a grandmaster is equivalent to a phd. Good luck for your endeavour, what's your current ELO?


Compare the millions of PhDs with just over 1000 grandmasters in the world to see how terribly wrong you are.


GM and PhD are not comparable goals: one does not have to compete head to head with other PhD candidates to obtain one.


I disagree.

The thesis and dissertation process involves presenting it to a panel of PhD holders for deliberation. That is the equivalent of facing GMs over the board for the norms.


 However, it is possible (even if unlikekly) for *all* candidates to pass this step: the student is not competing against his/her fellow students but against the panel. To gain a norm you need a certain score against a sufficiently highly-rated collection of opponents. This means there is a maximum number of norms acheivable at any given tournament ... you are competing against your fellow GM-aspirants AND the draw for those few, valuable norms. I believe it's possible for you to have the same score as another player but for him/her to get a norm and you not to, based on the strength of your opponents.

Additionally there are not a huge number of tournaments which attract strong enough players to offer norms ...

SimonSeirup
odessian wrote:

You are funny Simon. If this guy becomes a GM, it will be a remarkable result deserved to be mentioned in media, books, newspapers and everywhere else. Most people play and study chess their whole lives and NEVER come close to becoming a GM. You need to have time to study and financial resources to work with a coach on regular bases, play in tournaments etc etc. So unless it's your full time committment I don't believe one can become a GM or even an IM


Yes, you need time and a little money to become GM, but thats the price you have to pay, and thats what i mean when i say "work hard and want it".

Im not saying it is easy to become GM, im just saying that if one will play and study chess full time (i dont know, 10 hours a day?), i dont think you need much unlearnable talent, to become a GM.

chessroboto

Here is a chess.com thread that recently debated the concept of chess talent to achieve a chess title:

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/what-did-it-take-for-you-to-get-your-title

gorgeous_vulture
chessroboto wrote:

Here is a chess.com thread that recently debated the concept of chess talent to achieve a chess title:

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/what-did-it-take-for-you-to-get-your-title


 I think NM Reb's comments on this thread are spot on

Sceadungen

Interesting project, good luck with that.

Enjoyed the website.

odessian

My friend, even if you study chess 10 hours a day, by yourself you will not advance much. Chess is not a language that you can simply learn and apply. There are a lot of positions, especially in the endgame that you won't know how to play, no matter who you are, even a Capablanca. You need a coach who could show you how to play these.  

gorgeous_vulture

@JetSetter

"Have you gotten an IM+ strength coach yet? If you have any hope of making it, you'll sign off of chess.com and every other message board and start living at the local chess club. GM is accomplished through OTB, not through dithering around on your computer."

I've got a coach who's an IM. Consequently I have no delusions of ever making it to that level :-)

nimzo5
chessroboto wrote:
IMCheap wrote:
kinderchocolate wrote:

I personally think a grandmaster is equivalent to a phd. Good luck for your endeavour, what's your current ELO?


Compare the millions of PhDs with just over 1000 grandmasters in the world to see how terribly wrong you are.


@IMCheap: Would you please enlighten us with the Economies of Scale of being a chess Grandmaster versus holding an academic PhD degree?


 I don't think Economies of Scale means what you think it means.

Maybe you mean the economic reward?

SimonSeirup
JetSetter wrote:
RoadtoGM wrote:
SimonSeirup wrote:

I believe most people can become GM, if they really want to. I think every you guys talk to much about unleranable talent, and forget the ability to work hard, and to want it. A classic exeampel on this, is the Polgar sisters.
I think that all that 'you have to learn chess when your 3 years old, and you have to be 1900 elo at the age of 12' is nonsens. Maby you need much talent to become world champion, but i dont think that much talent is needed to become a 2500 elo GM. Remember, his goal is to become GM, not to achieve 2700 elo.

Nice blog, but i one thing i dont like about it, is that Chess Flash boards you use to show games. Its very small, and i dont like the design and the way the pieces move.

Anyways, good luck! :)


Thanks.  As is perhaps obvious from the existence of my blog, I incline more towards this view than to some of the others expressed.  I agree with you about the Chess Flash boards, and am looking into alternatives.

@IMCheap I don't think that's a valid point, when you take into consideration the number of people who have studied for PhDs, and the number of people who have seriously tried to become GMs.


 @Simon. The Polgars started at age 5. Genius here is starting (seriously) at 21. No problem, right? Only 14 years of cognitive development to overcome.

@RoadtoGM. You realize you're trying to debate with a Russian IM? Does it occur to you that he's in a MUCH better environment to identify what it takes to become a GM? Likely he's played more GMs than you have played rated ECF games.

Have you gotten an IM+ strength coach yet? If you have any hope of making it, you'll sign off of chess.com and every other message board and start living at the local chess club. GM is accomplished through OTB, not through dithering around on your computer.


The Polgar sisters was'nt an exsample of when to learn chess, but an exsample of talent vs hard work.

Are you saying that GM's have only learned OTB and havent used computers? What a joke.

chessroboto
nimzo5 wrote:

 I don't think Economies of Scale means what you think it means.

Maybe you mean the economic reward?


You are absolutely right. I meant Economic Reward.

In any case, you were able to infer my intended invitation for discussion.

nimzo5

chessroboto wrote:

GM and PhD are not comparable goals: one does not have to compete head to head with other PhD candidates to obtain one.

I disagree.

The thesis and dissertation process involves presenting it to a panel of PhD holders for deliberation. That is the equivalent of facing GMs over the board for the norms.


I don't think so. A thesis defense is merely like playing a panel of Titled players in an opening of your choosing where you picked a not clearly decided line.

For  PhD defense to be like getting the GM title. You would have to show up and individually defend many different subjects and win 7.5/10. Not so easy now is it?

chessroboto
SimonSeirup wrote:
The Polgar sisters was'nt an exsample of when to learn chess, but an exsample of talent vs hard work.

You are aware that this is the crux of the Nature VS Nurture debate, right?

Question: What has the rest of the scientific and philosophical community decided upon with regards to this ideology?

gorgeous_vulture
nimzo5 wrote:

chessroboto wrote:

GM and PhD are not comparable goals: one does not have to compete head to head with other PhD candidates to obtain one.

I disagree.

The thesis and dissertation process involves presenting it to a panel of PhD holders for deliberation. That is the equivalent of facing GMs over the board for the norms.


I don't think so. A thesis defense is merely like playing a panel of Titled players in an opening of your choosing where you picked a not clearly decided line.

For  PhD defense to be like getting the GM title. You would have to show up and individually defend many different subjects and win 7.5/10. Not so easy now is it?


 *AND* the panel would have to be rated high enough themselves

nimzo5
chessroboto wrote:

You are absolutely right. I meant Economic Reward.

In any case, you were able to infer my intended invitation for discussion.


 Yep. But I have seen articles suggesting that outside the US the prestige is much higher and the opportunity cost is far lower in being a professional chess player. In fact it is debatable which career path has more economic reward in less developed countries.

OllieK
SimonSeirup wrote:

I believe most people can become GM, if they really want to. ... i dont think that much talent is needed to become a 2500 elo GM. "


Opinions count for very little, results count for everything.  I fear you have little idea of what being a 2500 GM means.

chessroboto
nimzo5 wrote:
I don't think so. A thesis defense is merely like playing a panel of Titled players in an opening of your choosing where you picked a not clearly decided line.

EDIT: This fits perfectly with my example of the thesis dissertation/defence to get the PhD: a Master plays against a panel of GMs.

nimzo5 wrote:
For  PhD defense to be like getting the GM title. You would have to show up and individually defend many different subjects and win 7.5/10. Not so easy now is it?

Of course, the individual battles is what makes the GM norm different but still difficult. Perhaps I guess I should have said "rough equivalent" in my original post of disagreement.

Vulpesvictor

Interesting aspiration indeed, I also think Seirup is quite on point here. Also I wish you best of luck :)

Now, to all you nay sayers: What's the point? It's not entirely a bad thing to have ambitions, is it? Also your whole lineup of arguments make you sound awfully bitter. If this was your initial plan, it worked.

chessroboto
OllieK wrote:
SimonSeirup wrote:

I believe most people can become GM, if they really want to. ... i dont think that much talent is needed to become a 2500 elo GM. "


Opinions count for very little, results count for everything.  I fear you have little idea of what being a 2500 GM means.


Would you be able to ask GM/Dr John Nunn, PhD to join our discussion?

SimonSeirup
OllieK wrote:
SimonSeirup wrote:

I believe most people can become GM, if they really want to. ... i dont think that much talent is needed to become a 2500 elo GM. "


Opinions count for very little, results count for everything.  I fear you have little idea of what being a 2500 GM means.


I know very well what being a 2500 GM means. I have talked with a few GMs and IMs about what it took to get their title, and how much talent is needed.

Markle

Good luck in your chase of the GM title ,but remember it is a VERY HARD goal to reach or we would have many more then we already have. While Getting to GM, or even IM would be great I would be happy to get my rating somewhere in the 2200-2250 range it is currently at 1802 but i  admit my work ethic sucks. I am trying to correct that and truly believe i can reach 2200 if i work at it.