The 50 move rule shouldn't exist!

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Avatar of MARattigan
EndgameStudy wrote:

How can 1 knight and 1 king force the king to the edge. The other knight has to help at some point

I assume you're talking about the first diagram. The other knight does help by attacking the squares a2, a4, b1, b5, d1, d5, e2 and e4, by preventing the pawn from progressing until the black king is confined to two squares in a corner and, assuming this is the a8 corner (which is Black's stoutest defence) by immobilising the king on a8 after the blockade is abandoned. If the black king opts to be mated on h1 the pawn may indeed move forward to c3 to be reblockaded by the other knight at a late stage - in which case Black could be mated within the 50 move rule. 

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

What about positions where the king is in the center like this:

This is mate in 96 according to tablebase

Avatar of MARattigan

This should reduce to a single pawn blockaded on its fifth rank. It may then  stay there until the king is confined in a corner or move forward a square to be reblockaded depending on where the black king opts to be mated.

 

The Syzygy DTZ50 EGTB gives a DTZ of 121 (plies) so this can't be done within the 50 move rule.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

I see, cool

Avatar of FortunaMajor

Black can't win at all?

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

No way, white could sac both knights for the pawns if he had to. White would have to be really stupid and make random moves to lose this game

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
[COMMENT DELETED]
Avatar of MARattigan
FortunaMajor wrote:

Black can't win at all?

There are many won positions for Black in KNNKPP (and in KNNKP) but this is obviously not one of them as EndgameStudy points out.

 

For White to draw it's sufficient to leave the knights where they are while the king bars access for the Black king to b2 and g2, which it would need to attack the knights. If a pawn moves forward it is captured by the corresponding knight, leaving a drawn KNKP position.  

 

Winning is less simple of course.

Avatar of MARattigan
EndgameStudy wrote:

glitch?

Which glitch?

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

NVM, the page was blank when I loaded it and there were 2 duplicate images...gone now

Avatar of Beyond_Carrot

I find it very frustrating to have the repetition rule enforced in a clearly winning position, as well. A variation of a rook/king mate was in play, and I was 3 moves away from a forced mate when the system declared an automatic draw on the basis of repetition. This rule is simply unnecessary and unfair. 

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
Beyond_Carrot wrote:

I find it very frustrating to have the repetition rule enforced in a clearly winning position, as well. A variation of a rook/king mate was in play, and I was 3 moves away from a forced mate when the system declared an automatic draw on the basis of repetition. This rule is simply unnecessary and unfair. 

Assuming this isn't sarcasm, because the game is obviously not getting anywhere if the positions are repeating. If your opponent has a perpetual check at his disposal, than the position isn't "winning".

Avatar of Beyond_Carrot

I was working towards a rook/king mate; it wasn't "repeated check". Apparently the system flagged it and I honestly don't know why.

Avatar of omnipaul
Beyond_Carrot wrote:

I was working towards a rook/king mate; it wasn't "repeated check". Apparently the system flagged it and I honestly don't know why.

You repeated the positions - not only that, but you repeated moves just shuffling your king back and forth.  You couldn't figure out how to advance the position towards the mate and were punished for it. 

 

Repeating moves when you are in an otherwise winning position and are not forced to repeat is generally a mistake - potentially one that can turn that winning position into a drawn one.

 

In one game I played, at a certain point I had a choice between two moves.  I chose one and after a few more moves returned to the same position.  I then chose the other one and a few moves later won the game.  Had I chose the first one again, I would have made no progress in the game and my opponent would have been right to claim a draw.

Avatar of Beyond_Carrot

Maybe it was an odd way to carry it out, but I had a distinct plan for the checkmate. I was systematically cornering Black's king... it wasn't just mindless moves. 

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
Beyond_Carrot wrote:

Maybe it was an odd way to carry it out, but I had a distinct plan for the checkmate. I was systematically cornering Black's king... it wasn't just mindless moves. 

You may be right, I have had a draw claimed with only 2 repetitions. Note that the same position with the opposite player to move does NOT count as a repetition (zugzwang positions), so a minimum of 5 positional repetitions is required to be sure the same position with the same player to move has actually occurred 3 times.

Avatar of Beyond_Carrot

OK, thank you.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

50 Move Rule should also only be applied in theoretically drawn endgames such as KQKQ or KRKR, not KNNKP or KBNK or KBBKN where it may take up to 75 moves to win with perfect play. The blitz games are timed anyway, so if one player manages to make 60 moves instead of 50 and wins who cares?

Avatar of Elroch

It's worth noting that it is extremely difficult not to make mistakes in most long tablebase mates (i.e. making a move that changes the number of moves to mate).

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
Elroch wrote:

It's worth noting that it is extremely difficult not to make mistakes in most long tablebase mates (i.e. making a move that changes the number of moves to mate).

Don't mean necessarily KQNKRBN mates in 545, I mean if you just mess up a KNB endgame and need 10 extra moves to correct the position...etc, if the game is timed, see no need for a move limit of any kind...50..100...etc most players agree to a draw, or simply remove the increments if the game is going on too long.