The 50 move rule shouldn't exist!

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Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

Here's a list of only some endgames from tablebases that easily require well over 50 moves WITH BEST PLAY to force mate:

 

2 Bishops vs Knight

2 Knights vs Pawn

3 Minor Pieces vs Rook

Rook+Minor piece vs 2 Minor pieces

Queen+knight vs Knight, Bishop, Rook

Queen+Knight vs 2 rooks

...ETC...

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
FBloggs wrote:
EndgameStudy wrote:

The 50 move rule isn't fair. If for example in a knight+bishop endgame, the winning side finally has a forced mate, but the final mating move is move 51 or move 65..etc, it IS STILL A CLEAR WIN , and should not be declared a draw on a technicality. There are also endgames where well over 50 moves are required to force mate. Examples include 2 knights vs. pawn, rook+knight vs bishop+knight, and even one 500 move mate with a queen and knight vs. knight+bishop+rook. The 50 move rule shouldn't just give the losing side a way out of an easily won position

At the risk of appearing lazy, I would consider the draw a bargain if the alternative was playing another 500 moves for the win.  Man, you must really despise draws.  

Bro, ther is a guy here complaining that STALEMATE is a draw, which I completely disagree with. Stalemate should, and can only be a draw. I just don't think it's right when someone will mate someone in a few moves, and then the loser tries to count the moves and claim a draw. The point of this rule is to prevent useless ongoing games, but if the game WILL END-(and don't give me this, ohh he won't see the mate in 2 crap), there is no point in utilizing the rule. He will be mated, game over, end of discussion. And if the 50 move rule affects so few games anyway, why is it even enforced? I despise FAKE Draws on technicalities, such as it was move 54..etc. WHO CARES? the games over, so it took 5 extra seconds to make 2 extra moves. Big deal. Ironically it takes more time arguing about the moves and whether or not it should be a draw than it does to make the 3 extra moves and finish the game.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
Sylvex wrote:

Even if you had to draw the occasional game because you have two knights vs pawn, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Because why should it be a draw when I'm not even given a chance to try to win? It's not valid. It's basically saying u can do wahtever u want to the rules of chess cause ur impatient. If you're so worried about the tournament schedule and player's being tired, then DON'T MAKE THE TIME CONTROLS 3 HOURS ON EACH SIDE!!! That's what happens. Then the players finally get into the endgame, and u say, ohh it's taking too long, well guess why?

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
FBloggs wrote:
EndgameStudy wrote:
Sylvex wrote:

.I guess it depends.  But the rule is there because there's no surefire way to prove whether the player with the advantage knows how to mate or not.  I guess you could somehow use an engine, but I think the rule and possible TD discretion is ample

That's why there's time control. I'm just saying people shouldn't be able to take advantage of the rule to cheat their way out of an inevitable mate in 2 or 3 moves, like in that blitz championship example.

Taking advantage of a rule is not cheating.  A draw may be claimed if no pawn is moved nor piece captured in 50 moves.  That's the rule.  A mate that requires two or three moves beyond the 50 is not inevitable.  I think the 50 move rule makes sense.  Obviously you disagree but it's certainly not cheating to play within the rules, whether you agree with them or not.

Yeah it is, because you're just MIS-USING THE RULE! U know the game will end, and u try to count the moves and pretend it's a draw cause u know you will be mated in 2. That's like letting a serial killer out of prison because the DNA analyzer forgot to put his middle name on the paper.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

I think u guys need to look at some examples to see what I'm talking about:

 

Avatar of Brian-E

 I think the ending K+R+B vs K+R is a good example of where the 50 rule move is a good thing. Basically the weaker side has a theoretical draw if starting from a reasonable position, but it's very difficult to defend accurately and a slip-up can easily lose the game. Without the 50 rule move, the stronger side can play on indefinitely with no risk of losing until the weaker side finally slips up. (And even top players can and do slip up with the defence.)

 

Another point: examples of other endgame types like the ones given by @EndgameStudy above, where the stronger side has a won position but the fails to deliver it in the 50 moves, are ones where the defending side will have defended very well to hang on that long. Is it not reasonable to reward that sturdy defence with a draw?

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

That's not chess! There's no reward for "holding on". You can't just say "ok, i've held on for 40 moves, now I'll just blunder everything and claim a draw. You also don't automatically win when u take your opponent's queen. That just makes it EASIER to win in the end, but U HAVE TO MATE HIM TO FINISH THE GAME! Also, what if the next move, the winning side had a tactic that would win. It's not like seeing how long u can hold our breath. Number of moves is irrelevant to how someone played until the end! Also, there are NO positions in knight+bishop endgames where king can force draw (unless bishop+knight were forked to begin with). It's a guaranteed win for the knight and bishop.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

Yo, I got a GRANDMASTER to post on my forum topic!

Avatar of DjonniDerevnja
MickinMD wrote:

There has to be something like the 50 move rule. A B + N endgame takes a max. 32 good moves to mate starting from the most difficult position, if you can't do it in 50 how do you know you'll figure it out in 100, 200?

I just achieved a draw against a guy rated 200 points over me by sacrificing a pawn on the side where I had had a majority so that I could double and split up his connected pawns on the other side of the board where he had a majority and a passed pawn. Should I get less than 1/2 point because I was a pawn down? I thought it was a brilliant combination to trade my N + P for a B to allow me to set up a drawn position.

If you fail and the king slips trough, and walks to the safe corner yo could start all over again and maybe get it right after ca 60 moves, if wasnt for the 50 move rule. I think its a good rule.

Avatar of JustOneUSer
Umm... The amount of people who can play "perfect play" and see 60 moves into the future is about....

3?


Perhaps extend it to 60-75 moves for professional games, maybe even 100 if you must for pros. But on amateur level I think 50 is fine.
Avatar of JustOneUSer
NM is not grandmaster....
Avatar of torrubirubi
You don't need so many moves to mate with K, B and N. But you will probably not be able to mate playing during weeks without knowing the mating process, which is easier than most people think. This is why the rule exist, to avoid people trying to figure out things OTB which they should learn at home.
Avatar of Brian-E
torrubirubi schreef:
You don't need so many moves to mate with K, B and N. But you will probably not be able to mate playing during weeks without knowing the mating process, which is easier than most people think. This is why the rule exist, to avoid people trying to figure out things OTB which they should learn at home.

Here's an interesting illustration. The player of White, who clearly had not done that homework, was the Women's World Champion at the time this game was played. Given her less than impressive performance, I certainly don't have any problem with her opponent earning her half point here!

 

Avatar of torrubirubi

Brian, there is no technique there, only moving around the figures.  There is a very specific way how to push the king from one corner to the other, if you don't know it you will have huge problems.

Here one of my games, full of blunders from my side, but also from my opponent. I could use the technique, but it was much easier because there were some pawns around (but he lost them all and I could keep my). The game is interesting because the stalemate problem.

 

 

Avatar of torrubirubi
torrubirubi wrote:

Brian, there is no technique there, only moving around the figures.  There is a very specific way how to push the king from one corner to the other, if you don't know it you will have huge problems.

Here one of my games, full of blunders from my side, but also from my opponent. I could use the technique, but it was much easier because there were some pawns around (but he lost them all and I could keep my). The game is interesting because the stalemate problem.

 

 

I could for sure avoid him to get in the right corner, but the way how the game ended was much funnier!

Avatar of Brian-E

@torrubirubi Fortunately I do know it. I practised several years ago on a rival online chess site which had a bot for playing that ending. My point is that the Women's World Champion didn't know.

Avatar of torrubirubi

Here you can learn mate with K, N and B against K

https://www.chessable.com/chess-endgames/

In the book "100 Endgames You Should Know" you have a very nice technique, which I am using.

In the book "Essential Endings: Mating with B + N" you have another technique. This book is for free. 

Why to learn this? You will get better in the coordination between these figures, which is not that easy for most players.

Avatar of Sylvex

The only way I could see FIDE changing the rules is if they made the 50 move into whatever the minimum amount of moves required was to checkmate for that material. 

Avatar of Sylvex

As tested by an engine.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

Guys, I know how to mate with knight and bishop. I did it against stockfish multiple times at maximum level and was able to do it in 37 moves most of the time, occasionally 40. Knight and Bishop mates aren't a problem for me, that was just an example. I'm just saying for people who don't know how to do them, or aren't good at it, 50 moves is cutting a little too close, GIVEN that it can take up to 33 MOVES with PERFECT play. Also, the endgames like 2 bishops vs knight, which can take up to 78 moves. You are basically immediately declaring endgames with 2 bishops vs knight a DRAWN in SOME games, where both players play very accurately. True, most people can't calculate hundreds of moves ahead, but that's irrelevant. The rules of chess have to take ALL Possibilities into account. And if u say it only affects .001 percent of games, why is everyone saying it's a must-have?