Suggestion for the Tactics Trainer

The timer is fine...but if you let the time run all the way out and maybe even go into the negative...but find the answer, shouldn't that be a score of zero?  Zero points gained, but you shouldn't be penalized for the time because you figured it out.

Would make me feel less rushed and better for my chess game to be patient.

Can this be changed?

interesting suggestion. consider this though: in order for us to RATE chess tactics, we have to have two sides - the player and the puzzle! they are essentially like 2 players in a game and the outcome and rating adjustments are dependent on winning or losing. but this has to be based on something else - time. for example, if it takes you 2 minutes to solve something that takes the average person 15 seconds to solve, you didn't exactly win there. :) there is an untimed mode - it just happens to be unrated because of this same issue.

Another way to think of it is that you only have that long left with the time controls you are playing with. You have to find the move in that time limit because it doesn't count if you find the best move after you have timed out.

Erik,

I totally get it.  That is why my suggestion is a zero Deduction, zero addition if you get the puzzel correct.  Like a draw.  Yeah you didn't add any points to your overall score, but you also took the time to figure out the puzzel just to stay at even.  It would keep people from just moving a piece out of a fear of time control, which is what tactic "training" should be about (training the mind).

Exactly what I'm saying...well put.

if you do that then you end up with imbalanced ratings (problems gaining while people stay flat) and massive rating inflation over time.

is there a reason that the untimed method doesn't satisfice?

Well...the goal is to have a better tactics rating.  So is the trainer supposed to make you better at tactics or better at finding tactics fast?  I'm all for the timer as it creates the whole rating system.  What I'm saying is a correct answer shouldn't be penalized because of time it should just be a score of zero.  This would allow someone to still answer fast if they want to and gain points or lose points. 

In a nutshell:  Correct answers should never be penalized because of time.  Just like when studying a book of tactic problems. 

Rating inflation would only be for people who continue to answer problems correctly in the time alloted.  And if that is the case...who cares they deserve the rating.

In a real game, you won't get a draw for finding the best move after you ran out of time. Time is part of the game, and therefore also part of the Tactics Trainer. Chess isn't only about finding the best moves, but also about finding the best moves in time.

Of course not...but hello.  This is not a real game.  This is a training tool to make one better at finding the best move in any position.  I do not really understand the problem of a zero score, within the confines of a rating system?  It allows for the player to take time to find the best move in a position without being focused on losing rating points.  It also allows for that player to not be awarded with any points should he/she not make the correct decision within the framework of the ratings system (time).

Makes perfect sense to me.

Well when you are given a random position, you need time to analyse it. When you're playing a real chess game, you are familiar with the position at hand, so you need less time to notice positional aspects.

The problem with the timer is that people feel rushed and tend to look directly for moves rather than looking for positional aspects that will justify the moves. I agree with the rating system, I just thing we should be given way more time.

For myself, I like that they are timed and that the time is often short.  By having me lose points I can continue to get puzzles in the same range until I get a better handle on these types of tactics. I need to lose the points for this to happen or I will be presented situations too often that are too far beyond my current abilities.  The time and ratings on these puzzles is set by players who were faced with the same situations I am and they managed to solve the problem.

It has a lot of annoying mistakes and duals and when you figure it out quickly, plus 40 but if you miss, less 55

That is a fine point, but it really isn't going against anything we are saying.  We are saying the timer is fine, the time is fine, just don't penalize us or you (point wise) if after 10 mins we finally see the correct answer.  Our ratings stay the same and we will still have to solve problems at that level before we can move on.

I have been in the 1900's in the tactics trainer and must say some of the 1600 level problems gave me more trouble just based on the time.

Then do it unrated. Ratings don't mean anything. If you are after learning, then do it unrated. If you are after rating, it isn't fair for others that people could take days to solve it and not lose points, and on another note, real games have time limits! You have to be able to find the move in the time allotted and if you can't, you should lose points like you would in a timed out game.

you said "the point is to have a higher tactics rating". i think that is where the problem lies. the point is NOT to have a higher rating. the point is to get better at tactics. the rating is an indicator of how well you are doing compared to everyone else. :) if the 1600's are giving you trouble, that means that other people are solving it, on average, faster than you.

there is one really big reason we will NOT do this: and that is because then ratings can be manipulated with cheating. you can't see the answer? no problem. fire up a chess program, set the position, and solve. then your rating won't be affected.

if the point is to get a higher rating, then you need to play by the rated rules which are clear and only make sense from a mathematical point of view when done as they are.

if the point is to get better at tactics and you like the rating byproduct, then do rated tactics.

if the point is to get better at tactics and you don't like being bothered with time, then do untimed/unrated.

i understand where you are coming from and i respect that, but we aren't going to change it now. we do have on the suggestions list to have untimed but rated, and we will probably do that. but then everyone is on equal footing and the ratings will be consistent.

That's a good point...I didn't even consider the cheating aspect.

this is a ratings mongering discussion rather than tactics trainer issue. if you really believe it is about learning (which time is an element) then the rating shouldnt matter. how high would tactics trainers ratings be if there was no penalty for time? the opportunity to learn is there regardless of the scoring.

immortalgamer my suggestion to you is

after you screw up one puzzle (& your rating goes down) just try do solve it again (out of rated time), if you do it right you will be better and you being better will affect your rating in the future by solving other puzzles faster, which means improving the real rating. In other words puzzles solved after required time do affect you rating but indirectly.

That's my philosophy and so far it works ok ;)

PS sorry for my lousy english

One idea for preventing cheating is to make all the ratings unavailable to users. You just solve tactical problems, you receive problems according to your rating, but you don't know your rating and there is no way to find out! I bet that this will make cheaters run away: if they cannot show to somebody how smart they are, then they have no reason to cheat...

And there are other sites at which you can solve tactics, but you don't have a rating.