The draw feature on this site needs to change

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Avatar of AutisticCath

This was a game I played when I first started playing on here. The game ended in a draw though it will proclaim that black won even though this is not the case. Prior to coming to this website, I was unfamiliar with the draw feature and I will explain after posting the game why the internet should not even attempt to produce a "claim draw" feature or should mark this better. Most of the places I have played on in the past immediately end the game at three-fold repetition and the game ends in a draw. Note that three-fold repetition is third position repetition and not necessarily repeated moves.

The game in question is here:

As we can see, there is a significant problem--chess.com DOES NOT follow FIDE rules to the point! If it did, a draw has to be claimed not immediately following the person's move but PRIOR to them making the move that results in three-fold repetition. Therefore, IF chess.com WANTS to follow FIDE rules, it needs to change its draw feature on this website to enforce draws when the player simply has an intention to mark a three-fold repetition. However, chess.com for some reason also takes away your ability to claim a draw after the following move in accordance with FIDE rules. BUT as I have already pointed out, it does not follow FIDE rules to the point so why is there a need to follow FIDE rules on this? Further, as the three-fold repetition merely is the position, then there should at least be a flashing light on the draw button at this point in order to help beginners know that this point is a draw. I shudder to think how many people have lost games because their opponent has been able to make his move breaking the three-fold repetition prior to them being able to claim a draw. As chess.com does not allow you to claim a draw prior (which is something that FIDE enforces) and takes away your draw privilege immediately after your opponent has completed his move (which is something FIDE would not allow as you need to claim the draw prior to making your move by writing your move down on your score sheet and showing it to the arbiter), I see no reason why chess.com needs to be a stickler on the rule that a draw can only be claimed immediately after the third position or 50 move rule is breached.

Avatar of Martin_Stahl

I know in the past there have been some weird issues with triple repetition but I think if you click the offer-draw before making your move and then make the move creating the triple-repetition, then it should allow the draw (assuming it truly is correct). I haven't had that happen in a game here and haven't seen if it has been tested more recently to verify how it works in practice.

They system should never automatically award the draw in such situations and really shouldn't even notify the player that that situation exists. In an OTB game, the player has to be aware of the repetition (or 50 moves condition) and accurately claim it. Same should be true here as long as the implementation of the claiming works (preferably with the click draw before move option and a check after the move or with a claim after the move).

Avatar of Robert_New_Alekhine

What's very annoying is that when you are very low on time, you don't have time to click draw. Perhaps if you repeat for 4 or 5 times, then it should automatically claim draw?

Avatar of AutisticCath

Martin_Stahl,

As NM Reb has pointed out in another forum thread, the computer clicks the clock for you, records the move for you, there is no reason why it should not indicate when you can claim a draw either.

Further, while a draw must be claimed accurately, according to USCF and FIDE OTB rules, the person simply shows their intention to the arbiter before making their move to make the move resulting in the repetition and the arbiter will, if it is a third repetition, end the game as a draw.

Avatar of AutisticCath

Also, Martin_Stahl, in case you missed the point of my thread that I've started--chess.com does NOT follow OTB rules to the point so why does it need to follow a CERTAIN select part of OTB rules to follow? That's called cherry-picking.

Avatar of ForeverHoldYourPiece

Write a ticket https://support.chess.com/customer/portal/emails/new

Avatar of TheronG12
newengland7 написал:

Martin_Stahl,

As NM Reb has pointed out in another forum thread, the computer clicks the clock for you, records the move for you, there is no reason why it should not indicate when you can claim a draw either.

I think it does, in English at least. The button changes from Offer Draw to Claim Draw. At least that's what I've read, for me it just says Ничья.

Avatar of MSC157

Isn't it like that irl that if you make a 5-fold repetition (or 70-move rule), the arbiter declares a draw rather than players?

Avatar of AutisticCath

Kendis1,

I think the rule that one claims a draw simply by showing the arbiter the intention to make the three-fold repetition is because in USCF and FIDE rules one only gets the one opportunity to claim a draw immediately following the 50 moves and/or three-fold repetition.

TheronG12,

I've never seen the draw button switch. It just simply says "draw" here for me.

Avatar of TheronG12

Maybe it's only in online chess not blitz that the button changes.

Avatar of Martin_Stahl
newengland7 wrote:

Also, Martin_Stahl, in case you missed the point of my thread that I've started--chess.com does NOT follow OTB rules to the point so why does it need to follow a CERTAIN select part of OTB rules to follow? That's called cherry-picking.

 

The site itself cherry-picks which rules it follows and how it implements them (as it has the right to).

 

I was just stating that the site probably shouldn't let a player know when such a situation exists.  Though, the newer rule of the automatic draws should probably be implemented (as mentioned by MSC157 -- 5 time repetition and 75 moves without capture or pawn move).

Avatar of Martin_Stahl

It can be done on any subsequent move but if a pawn has been moved an any captures have occurred the count resets. There is a potential that due to pre-moves and quick plays, that that condition could happen.

Don't think the OP is claiming it can't be claimed after move 52, for example, but it does kind of read that way.

Avatar of Aquarius550

I feel the need to speak out on this issue, but I can't see where the OP is coming from. It is as if, like me, he gets an idea in his head and makes a post about it, regardless of whether or not it makes sense to anyone else. If that is the case, I question the OP's reasoning as I would question my own, and cannot agree with the tone of the suggestion or post.

Avatar of TheYear9876

i recently played a game on here in which we repeated the position atleast  6 times but it wasnt automatically deemed a draw. for some unknown reason which i can't explain when it was my turn i made a different move, this allowed my opponents King to escape to safety and as he was a lot of material up i quickly lost . i wasnt happy.

Avatar of AutisticCath

FIDE and USCF rules would have automatically ended the game at move 5. Another reason why the draw feature on this site needs to change. If it isn't going to follow FIDE and USCF rules to the point, there is no need for it to follow it or be a stickler on other issues.

Avatar of csalami

You have to accept that having an arbiter and having a computer program to enforce the same rule is just different. OTB, the arbiter can simply check if there was/would be (depending on who claims the draw) a threefold repetition or not. But a computer program is different, it's much simpler for it to check it after a move if it is a threefold repetition.
And taking away the option to claim a draw after the following move is just a simple logic, no need for FIDE rule here.

Avatar of xman720

I see the problem here.

It does appear that they haven't done it quite right.

If the same position has been done twice and you have the ability to repeat the position a third time with your next move, then the "offer draw" button should function as "claim draw button". That would make chess.com match USCF and FIDE.

It would be like this:

First repetition:

Opponent makes move, you make move

Second repetititon:

Opponent makes move,

You have the power to make a move that would cause a third repetition, so then by offering a draw the site would automatically claim a draw for you. It's the same as OTB, except you don't have to "declare your intentions" the ability just has to be there and you offer a draw.

Avatar of r_k_ting
Kendis1 wrote:

The proof is in the pudding so to speak, why shouldn't the rule be that you claim a draw by threefold repetition only after the position has been repeated for a third time?  This argument about claiming before or after the move seems like a distinction without a difference.

Allow me to repost what I just said. It absolutely does make a difference.

You need to think a bit more about the situation. 3-fold repetition will only appear one of two ways: due to a move your opponent just made, or due to a move you just made.

In the first situation, it is now your move, so you have all the time on your clock to click the button to claim the draw. In the second situation, it is now your opponent's move, and they can make their move before you have the chance to claim the draw. If their move doesn't continue the repetition, you just lost the chance to claim the draw. Even worse, your opponent can make a premove, which means you will never have the opportunity to claim.

Avatar of Martin_Stahl
newengland7 wrote:

FIDE and USCF rules would have automatically ended the game at move 5. Another reason why the draw feature on this site needs to change. If it isn't going to follow FIDE and USCF rules to the point, there is no need for it to follow it or be a stickler on other issues.

 

It should be noted that the 5-fold repetition (and 75 move draw) are newer implementations. Longer for FIDE(July 2014) and was only added  earlier this year (I believe) to the USCF ruleset.

Since v3 has been in progress, it is very likely they won't implement the automatic draw, in these two instances, until after it has went fully live (though I could be wrong).

Avatar of AutisticCath

Martin_Stahl--

I was not aware of that about the 75 move rule and the five move rule. To be honest though, I think the way most engines have resolved this is fine as well. Most engines that I've played on just simply automatically end the game as a draw after three-fold repetition. I don't see why chess.com cannot do that. It's not as if internet chess keeps up entirely with the rules of FIDE and the USCF any way.