the side-effects of cheating

 Cheating is bad because it gives someone an unfair advantage and often may get them rewarded with something they dont deserve and could not earn without cheating. Imagine if doctors cheated to become doctors and werent as qualified as they should be and people think they are ? How many more people would die due to incompetent doctors practicing medicine when they shouldnt be? This is just an extreme example of what cheating could result in......

I have always wondered why people like fuze22 dont just go to a site that does allow computer use during the games and there is no "cheating" ? Why come to a site that doesnt allow it, and does consider it cheating, and defend it or try to get the site to change?

 Ofcourse , lower rated players dont seem to be bothered as much by cheating as higher rated players. They are used to losing anyway so why should they be?

Ha ha ha!!

Cuendilar: "For someone of my own rating class the situation is different as the possibilities of holding off or even beat Fritz or Rybka are far from negligible." In this case, I would suggest you quit this site and start playing professional chess. Even for today's world champion, the possibilities of beating an engine are now negligible :))

In my case, I hate to play against cheaters because I simply waste my time. I have nothing to learn from such a game. Humans play like humans and engines play like engines.

I am surprised why so many people defend and say that "advanced chess" is good. I don't care about this issue, but there are many sites which allow engine usage. Perhaps some people love to use engines against human opponents, so that they feel as being grandmasters...

 You sound very much like one who would use an engine yourself for your games and given the VAST difference between your otb (national )  rating and the one here I wouldnt be surprised at all....

i think you should have to agree with your opponent that you are both using computers so keep the title of your game "computer game" so if they really want to play you, they know you are using a computer

I just find it curious that someone here can have a rating 800 points higher than their otb and yet I cant .... if I could I would be over 3000 here. Oh, and I also use books and data bases and all the allowed things here as well as sometimes not moving for a day or more in critical positions....  I am also retired and not in any school which pretty much assures I can spend more time on chess than you..... so you still smell "fishy" to me.... sorry.

I hate playing against computers. That is why I play online and OTB as much as I can.

My 2 cents.

Hey all, if you want to play computer-assisted chess for your own benefit, join the Internet Chess Club and sign up for computer-assisted membership.  It is not illegal there to use a computer and anyone playing you will know that you are using a computer, so there are no hard feelings.  As for calling it cheating, obviously we each have our own opinions so it isn't worth trying to change anybody's mind.  I hope this helps fuze22 :)

I agree with Fuze that under some set of values, using computer assistance in games seems like no big deal. But an important question is what are your values?

If winning chess games is important to you, even if you are not the one doing the thinking, then winning becomes very very easy. Just look over Reb's old games, and play them through one at a time. While doing so, pretend that it's you, not Reb, who thought of the move. Go further, and search and replace Reb's name with yours in the downloaded database of his PGNs. What's the difference between using a computer to make your moves, and pretending to play chess? I think there's really no difference. You can even pretend to be Spassky or Karpov, if you want. Pretending is easy.

Is pretending to play chess what you want to do with your free time?

So lets start accusing people of cheating, as if that makes what he has said invalid. If you think someone is cheating there are ways to deal with it instead of saying "I think you are a cheater" in a public space.

People like me? What kind of person am I? In my first post I believe I stated that real games are more valuable. Have I ever said that cheating should be allowed on this site? Did I ever say cheating was a good thing? No. I am saying cheating is not as bad as you think. Not on this site. I am trying to discuss the real side effects of cheating.

Yes cheating is bad, hence it is called "cheating". Yes, people are getting "something" they have not achieved themselves. What is that "something" on this site? What are they achieving? As a doctor you can get a lot of money by cheating people out. As a chess.com member you get...what exactly? A high rating? There are numerous high rated players. Do you get respect? I doubt it. Words are the only thing on this site that will get you anything worth a dime. Lets take you for example. You are obviously an accomplished player. Your NM title probably earns you a lot of respect, that is something you gained outside of this site. So without your title you are among many others. The fact that you interact with the community as you do is what really gives you that "something". Now lets take someone with the same rating as you who has cheated his way up. What exactly have they achieved? They are just a nobody among many. They cant talk about chess because they would reveal they are not as strong as the rating suggests. If a high rating is so important to someone that they must cheat then it still will not effect the overall community.

More side effects of cheating that I know for a fact has happened and is happening : I know a GM  that used to play on ICC in the 5-min pool who quit playing there completely. I asked him why and he said because there are too many cheating there and too little done to stop it. He is a GM over 2600 fide and a former candidate in the 80s !!  Imagine if a player of his ability quits due to cheating what it must do to those of much lesser ability. I know personally others of about my strength ( fide 2100-2300) who have given up on the battle against cheaters and in frustration have themselves started cheating ! Even GMs have been caught cheating and why would a GM cheat ? Well, my guess is because they also cannot beat the strong programs they face so they have said " screw it " and enlisted the aid of programs too because they get tired of being smashed by people who dont even have an otb rating in some cases.... its not hard to see the damage cheating does if you are a real chess player. Perhaps those who cannot see the damage/harm it does are not real chess players ?

 You know, it seems to me more and more that you are more concerned about winning and points, than playing chess and improving.... Let's face it, there is no online chess without some sort of "aid", so accept this fact and move on or, MOVE ON....

OTB  and  you  = a beautiful combo 

wow...unreal, never even imagined people would use programs to better their live chess ability. i thought it was brain vs brain and the only experience i have ever played a computer was on against a playstation 2 game which completely anhilalated me. it is an amazing game chess one that brings out complexities within the human psyche that must be explored by peer on peer for enjoyment or vs the computer for some cold practice.

I understand why an honest player who has studied the game for many years gets upset when they are cheated. I am trying to show that on this site maybe they shouldn't be getting upset. Yes cheating is wrong haha, how many times must this be stated. Read the title of my thread please. There is a huge difference between playing for four dollars versus nothing. My desire to win would be substantially larger for the four dollars. I don't understand how you can say that your desire to win is the same.

I am tiered of people like you insulting me. I have done nothing wrong. I am trying to have an honest discussion here. And very few are even commenting on the point of this thread, the side-effects of cheating. Please don't say there is something wrong with me, I am a fool, or suggest that I am trying to cause havoc in the forums. What are you trying to cause with these comments?

Please people, I just want an honest discussion. Don't call me a cheater just because I am viewing cheating from another perspective. How can anyone try to think outside of the box if they are going to be burned at the stake for it.

Cheating on ICC is much different then at chess.com. First of all you pay a monthly subscription to play unless you are titled. Secondly ICC has more top players than any other place on the internet. The level of competition is vastly different from this site. ICC and chess.com are completely different. I see chess.com as more of a community site and a place to learn.

Now the 2600 hundred player being cheated. They are among the best in the world. I could not imagine what it must feel like to be cheated when you have worked and earned so much, more than probably any of us will achieve. The compition at ICC is fierce so I can understand that they would no longer take part. But how does this even relate to chess.com? And your question on the impact of lower rated players, it is less of an impact because they have less to lose. Similar to how wealthier people commit suicide more often then poor. I agree that cheating has negative side-effects. On this site are they as bad as on ICC?

What is a real chess player? Somone who agrees with you? That makes as much sense as saying you are not a real American if you don't like hamburgers and hot dogs.

Why ICC should be different? Cheaters are here and there, doing the same thing they know. About paying a fee? No problem, cheaters are always eager to pay a membership fee, in order to demonstrate everybody their amazing chess abilities. I played on ICC, I reported cheaters there too (the rate was about one per week). I think that the main difference is that on ICC it is much more easily for a cheater to get a (C) attached to his name then here. Here it appears that the staff is somewhat reluctant to ban premium members.

I simply don't understand why a lower rated player has less to lose when playing with a cheater. I think that, no matter who plays against a computer, has a lot to lose: a huge amount of time which is wasted. You have nothing to learn from an engine.

A real chess player for me is one that is really interested in becoming a stronger chess player and works hard toward that end/goal. A real chess player would NOT cheat because he knows this would not help him increase his chess understanding at all, even though it would likely increase his/her rating. There are many recreational players in chess, as in other games/sports. Such players usually dont work at the game, often dont even know all the rules, and play sporadically, at best. These are an example that I would NOT consider as "real" chess players. As for your smart aleck comment, a real chess player may or may not agree with me as this has nothing to do with my definition.

I tried to explain the difference.

"About paying a fee? No problem, cheaters are always eager to pay a membership fee, in order to demonstrate everybody their amazing chess abilities." I dont think that is true. I think most cheaters are short-lived. Maybe some are really dedicated and make it to the top ranks. These few dedicated cheaters seam to define all other cheaters, even thought Ibelieve they are rare. I think that most cheaters shortly realise the pointlessness of their actions.I dont know what you have to back up the claim that cheaters are eager to pay a fee. I cant think of anything that suggests so.

And so many people are very proficient and detecting cheaters. If so many people seam to spot cheaters all of the time then why is it that cheating seams to be a rampant thing . ICC cant seam to control all of this cheating that is going on, apparently. Why don't they higher these forum members so they can start putting down their foot.

There are a few good reasons I can think of why a lower rated player has less to lose. One is that a loss is just different at the two different levels. Garry Kasparov has almost as many draws as wins and very very few loses. 32% of my games are loses on this site in comparison. That should show one clear reason why a lose is more impactful on higher rated players. Another difference follows. Say a nobody defeats Michael Jordan in a one on one match. Now say that same nobody defeats you in a one on one match. I am sure you can clearly see that Michal Jordan has a lot more to lose even though you have both lost to the same person.

Now, I have already tried to show that a player can actually gain from being cheated. I have also tried to show that the cheater can also gain something. Because cheating is wrong people are refusing to consider this. Everyone knows that cheating is wrong, that cheating has harmful implications. Now can we move on. I want to discuss what are the harmful implications, what are the benifical implications.

A good point you make is that the player loses time. I disagree. As long as you dont know you are being cheated then it is equal to any other game. You can learn from it like any other game. Even knowing you have been cheated you can learn from the game like any other game. Some time is wasted because psychologically it is different. But when you let your anger get the best of you then you are truly wasting time. There are very few situations were you as a player can ,without reasonable doubt, know you are being cheated. And this adds more to the odds that your time wont be wasted unless you waste it yourself.

You cant learn from an engine? That begs the question, why do they even exist?

I've found out so many cheaters. I even caught someone cheating who was my friend (some friend, cheats on his own friend?).

The person using the "computer assistance" learns nothing.

The person playing against the computer, learns very little.

Yes I said it. If chess was just "play the hardest player you can find and you'll get better" then everyone would constantly play chessmaster and not bother signing up for a website.

Why? Well think about it. When you play players your level, it takes time, sometimes the other person is thinking, and then you see a move you missed a few steps ago, or you see a new move that you wouldn't have if you had just played a chessmaster computer.

When you play players your level, they make an interesting move that looks amazing at first, but then you realize it's a blunder, and this doesn't happen with computers, and you actually learn WHY a move is good or bad. A computer does everything so perfectly, that most of the time you don't know what it's really doing/planning.

Cheating is wrong, for sure. Anyone who thinks they learn by cheating is an idiot. Anyone who thinks that computer assistance games should be allowed is naive. Anyone who thinks that players cheat to learn is wrong--it's completely psychological--they cheat because they have low self esteem and are weak minded.

Probably the two most common side effects of cheating are projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea.