True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides

Thousands of professional players have dedicated decades, if not centuries, worth of their lives look for the absolute optimal opening moves assuming best play from both sides, and the best they've gotten is a +.2 evaluation from top engines. If chess was a forced win, that would've been figured out already.

It's probably way too early to figure if chess is a forced win or draw. Because humans are very limited in their abilities, it will probably come down to what a computer can figure out. But computers are in their infancy, barely able to tackle this problem. That's why I say it will probably be about 200 years or so before an intelligence comes close to figuring it out for sure. I agree the first move advantage in chess is very small, but it is there. The topic is whether or not chess is a draw with best play, not whether or not it's a draw with mistakes. That's why I think the first move advantage, even being so small, matters. Other games there is no first move advantage, because best play has been discovered. In checkers or some other games if the response isn't best play, then it's not a tie. Nobody knows what that is for chess yet. 

PATRIOT Just because best play has been discovered in both checkers and in tic tac toe does NOT  mean there is no first move advantage in those two games. There is obviously a Strong first move advantage in both of those games AS MOST PLAYERS DO NOT KNOW THE OPTIMUM, MOVES. THERE IS FOR SURE A STRONGER FIRST MOVE ADVANTAGE IN  TIC TAC TOE THAN IN CHESS. AND THERE IS A NICE ADVANTAGE IN  CHECKERS. YOU ARE SIMPLY IGNORING THE EVIDENCE OF TRILLIONS OF GAMES PLAYED, 

YES, the first move practical advantage in chess matters for the average chess player and also for more than 99% of the chess players as they do not know optimum play. But what you are ignoring [and btickler is also ignoring] IS THAT IN  THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF CHESS--OPTIMUM  PLAY HAS ALREADY BEEN FOUND!  This is why some players go for years without losing a game. . This is why in  the recent tournament of top players there was a 9 way tie for first place as every game was drawn. 

Yes it does. With best play, there is no first move advantage in checkers or tic tac toe. If someone makes the perfect first move in either game, and the response is perfect, and so on, the result is a tie. Best play (in those games) means there is no first move advantage. If there is not best play, then there can be a first move advantage. 

But since we dont know what best play is in chess (both people and computers and people/computer combos) keep getting better the term best play keeps changing. What's best play one decade isn't best play decades later. A better way is found. There are all kinds of examples of perfection or best play that turned out to be false. Complicated endgames where there is a mate in a hundred moves or something. What was known to be a draw, turns out is actually a forced mate. 

Just because you think you know something so very complicated doesn't mean you do. You have faith you do, I get it. But if history is any guide, often what someone knows to be true can often turn out completely opposite. 

Okay, for the sake of argument, let's assume for a second that chess is indeed a forced win for white. What first move leads to it? First off, we know for a fact that white can't win with just any move. 1.g4, for instance, is either a draw or a win for black, and even 4th millennium technology isn't going to change that. Is it 1.e4? I want to see your refutation of the Berlin defense in that case. So which first move? What's your best guess? What's your gut feeling?

Objectively there is no first move advantage in tic-tac-toe or checkers but practically the player who moves first has a better chance to win. Very simple Ponz and Patriot.

Mark  that is exactly what I mentioned--though I used more words. 

okay. lemme get this straight.

...no first move advantage in tic-tac-toe or checkers...who (ever) moves first has a better chance to win.

wha-WHAT ??? 

uhh, u may wanna do a logic check b4 u rank on P & P ? thats dum.

I have no idea. Nobody else does either. With the weird combinations of moves that new computers are finding it could be something nobody has thought of yet. Or it could be that none exist. It's just far too early to know. 

Everything is summed up here.

Some people on this thread would make pretty poor game designers .  It's entirely possible to have a first move advantage for one player over another that is not a decisive advantage.  Chess works because material advantages up to a minor piece (2 if both knights) can still be a drawn game.  If the player with a 1 pawn advantage at the end always won, then the game would be all about trading down to a won endgame the second a pawn got grabbed, and the game would have been boring and died out centuries ago.  Sometimes trading down works, sometimes it doesn't.

It's like en passant.  A ton of chess players don't understand the need for it at all...they cannot even conceptualize what would happen to chess endgames if a pawn on the 2nd rank could jump past a pawn on the 4th and become a passed pawn.  

I remember my very first USCF tournament --The US Open in Omaha in 1959. In one game I was not doing very well but GM Pal Benko was looking at my game. Why would a GM who was trying for first place be interested in  a game by 2 Juniors? [Benko was looking from about 2 tables away]

And then I figured it out--Benko was a well known endgame super expert. So I made a sacrifice which left me with a bare king. My opponent had a king and a bishop and a pawn.

and both his pawn and bishop were well protected by his king. I offered a draw and at that moment Benko came over to our table and announced "It is a draw!!" My opponent was stunned only for about 3 seconds and then agreed to m,y offer of a draw. 

Chess is very hard to win  sometimes even with a nice material advantage. This, in itself, does not  prove chess is a draw with best play---it is just one more piece of evidence.

Damn....How old are you now ? I thought this site was only filled up with 10 year olds.

People of any ages can use this website

Wait 70 years old!!!

Ya I know....but I generally see only these annoying 10 year olds here.....its the first time am seeing someone this elder .

Hey i am 13!!!

Plz dont call me annoying now ok.

Yeah me too

Lol not you....but there are kids who are really annoying....

Generally you will not find 10 year old's addressing the question  of this forum.  I am age 79 myself.