True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides

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ponz111

Optimissed Regarding  your post #9361 and the diagrammed position #9359--Here is why the position solution is a brilliant move.

1. The  real solution was found 2 moves earlier as I had to set up the move by playing Ra6 and Nc6 to even get to the diagram position.

2. After I played the correct move [after the diagrammed position]---my opponent a strong master immediately resigned!tongue.png

3. He resigned because I showed him my move was an absolutely forced win  against any defense

mpaetz

     No one disagrees that two equally (extremely) strong players, engines, or a combination of the two, will draw almost all of the time--only an error should lead to a decisive result. However, except for a computer playing vs another with the exact same program, wins do occur, and more often with white than black. This seems to indicate that white enjoys some advantage, though whether it is enough to force victory is unproven.

     A century ago, the strongest chess entity of the time (Capablanca) said chess was "played out"--everything was known to the top players and the game would die. Since then others, notably Fischer, opined that Capablanca had been mistaken but now (their day) it was true. Some here say that this time we CAN be sure.

     The key is the ability to infallibly analyze positions. I have yet to be convinced that we possess it. It may be that we have reached a point where we can be sure we understand it all, but I think (and hope) that the continued exploration of chess and accumulation of knowledge will lead to greater understanding than we now possess. In so many areas of human thought long-standing "certainties" have been overthrown by the gradual accumulation of evidence, the inspiration of great genius, or an accidental discovery.

     Of course, there is every possibility that a final proof will be found confirming present opinion (in which I concur) that chess is inherently drawn, but no matter how well-supported, it remains opinion--a mutable commodity.

 

 

 

ponz111

mpaetzs  What you seem to be over looking is the ton of evidence that you do not know about.?

mpaetz

     I am confident that no one on earth knows every bit of evidence. And I don't believe that there is NO possibility of further evidence being discovered. And I don't believe anyone can infallibly judge what the evidence means.

     Remember that for thousands of years every authority in every human society was absolutely certain that the earth was flat.

ponz111

Elroch has 2 forums very much longer than this one.

ponz111

mpaetz I never said or implied that anyone knows every bit of evidence  that chess is  draw.  Every single day there is more evidence.[you seem to misquote me]

Your argument about the earth being flat was never believed by everybody or every authority

Come on......??. 

mpaetz

     Please point out one ancient religion that did not describe the earth as flat. It was only about 2000 years ago that a few Hellenic philosophers, relying on many centuries of astronomical observations throughout the "known" world, advanced the theory of a moving, rotating spherical earth. And the flat, stationary earth was official dogma long after that. You need only glance back through this forum to see that chess having been proved a draw is not believed by everybody or every authority.

     The point is that no matter how overwhelming the evidence we have is on most any subject, mere agreement among the greatest authorities is hardly absolute proof. 

     Remember that I agree with your opinion, I'm just not certain that it can be taken as incontrovertable fact.

pauldrapier
LoekBergman wrote:

The GM's are very good at chess. If chess would imply a win for white, then would imho the rate of won games at the GM level be much higher then currently is.

Hasn't there been research indicating that the higher the rating of both players is, the bigger the chance that the game ends in a draw?

Look at the engines.

Even when AlphaZero """crushed""" Stockfish, 84% of the games were draws.

https://www.chess.com/news/view/updated-alphazero-crushes-stockfish-in-new-1-000-game-match

The better the chess players, the more draws.

ponz111

mpaetzs it is silly to try and get science from religion. Religion does not have all the knowledge in the world.

Sea captains watching sailing ships disappear over the horizon knew the earth was not flat. 

I know you agree with my opinion.  I am saying you would agree much more if you knew a lot more evidence.

Also I am not saying that my opinion on this matter can  be taken as  incontrovertable  fact. 

Also I never said that  mere agreement among the greatest authorities  is absolute proof of anything.

What you are doing [not intentionally] is misquoting me. I never have said one piece of evidence is "proof". It is evidence--=it can be very good evidence but it is not proof. I am very careful with my words

There are always people who believe the earth is flat.

hoodoothere
Optimissed wrote:

Three girlfriends could wear us out at our age. It was ok back in the day ... although still liable to cause trouble!

That never worked out for me....every time I had more than one girlfriend they found out about each other and I ended up with none.

ponz111

Where I now live in the Philippines the ladies are very jealous. [but beautiful and kind] But  having more than one girlfriend at a time is dangerous to your health. shock.png

ponz111

El;roch  I know the ghosty lady is pointing out  there is much to be explored. She uses colorful language and I do not always know what she might be saying? I should learn her language better.tongue.png

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

IM SOOO GLAD THIS MONDAYS OVER FONZ !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqa1s4jhkQ8

and for all the stuff ive done ?...ohh lord   ohh lord have mercy on me...

 

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

im gonna watch the cam for a few mins to see if babber & april walk by w/any guys lol !...(im terrible) watch w/ me !

https://www.gotostcroix.com/live/

ponz111

Elroch I never use a single game to try and prove anything. In the strongest form of chess there are hundreds of games [or more] which give evidence that chess is a draw. Some have been posted on this forum.

Also in the strongest form of chess there are players who never lose. This is one reason if someone math proved chess is a draw [which I think will probably never happen] this would not prove chess is a draw to many people

I know I asked you this question before but you did not respond...."Are you 100% certain of anything?"

lfPatriotGames
Optimissed wrote:

It's difficult to seperate the "white should win" brigade between the ones who are having some fun, although of a dubious quality; and the ones that are so thick that they believe it.

I don't believe you. There is a third category you know. 

ponz111

PATRIOT As I understand it you are not sure but tend to think chess might be a win? Please correct me if I am wrong?

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

did u hear hikaru say that Alpha Zero would destroy ANY living GM like a scrub ?!

that means u using correspondence chess azza gauge if chess izza draw or not ?...is just W R O N G  !! (until u change ur thread title)

trust me. AZ would absolutely work ALL CC players alive today. and probably at the same time !

so. whats this say ?...in practice chess is NOT a draw. so there.

lfPatriotGames

What Lola said is why this topic has gone on for 470 pages. In "theory" chess could be a draw, in practice, it's not. Some people are more convinced by what they see, not what someone believes. 

It's not that much different than what Elroch basically, in the billions and billions of games ever played not a single one has ever been proven to be a forced draw. 

The idea of chess being a forced draw only exists in some peoples minds. It does not exist on the chessboard. That's why people still play, at all levels. 

ponz111

ghosty lady what you mentioned in  post #9393 has already been addressed many times. 

Also what Elroch posted recently had already been addressed many times.,