...not really u. but maybe ur big toe ?
True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides
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Sep 7, 2021
0
#8203
Optimissed wrote:
That isn't the point. We already understand that there's no formal proof, either way. You should understand that, if you're read the thread sufficiently.
In the absence of formal proof, we are looking for other things. One such other thing is the absence of any indication that chess is a forced win.
Had you read the thread sufficiently you would know that the point I have repeatedly advanced is that there is no formal proof. "Other things" are FAR less convincing than a formal proof. Opinions, no matter how convincing, are not facts.
Sep 8, 2021
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#8204
Optimissed wrote:
Then why did you belabour the subject of formal proofs? They were briefly mentioned in passing and you reacted by basing an argument around them.
You seem to be of the impression that you've brought something original and positive but all it seems to be is nit-picking and constant, passive aggression. And do stop attention seeking by leaving great big blank spaces. Delete them or something.
Anyway, opinions are often facts. Everything that's considered a fact was once someone's opinion.
Just pointing out that the only difference between us on this subject is that I am not totally convinced that my opinion that chess is inherently a draw is a fact that others need to acknowledge.
mpaetz wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Then why did you belabour the subject of formal proofs? They were briefly mentioned in passing and you reacted by basing an argument around them.
You seem to be of the impression that you've brought something original and positive but all it seems to be is nit-picking and constant, passive aggression. And do stop attention seeking by leaving great big blank spaces. Delete them or something.
Anyway, opinions are often facts. Everything that's considered a fact was once someone's opinion.
Just pointing out that the only difference between us on this subject is that I am not totally convinced that my opinion that chess is inherently a draw is a fact that others need to acknowledge.
That's a good way of looking at it. I personally feel that it's a fact that chess is a forced win for white, it just hasn't been proven yet. There really is no point or advantage to anyone else acknowledging it.
not that it could be a draw...but was it invented to BE a draw ? which brings me to "chess was always there...and that we just had to discover it"...bleeve or not bleeve ?
I AM ONLY ABOUT 99.99999% SURE CHESS IS A DRAW.
Oct 9, 2021
0
#8208
ponz111 wrote:
I AM ONLY ABOUT 99.99999% SURE CHESS IS A DRAW.
This sort of indecision must be mental torture for you.
It could be a form of zugzwang, the first pawn move gives you a defect. White to play and lose. Or maybe they just move knights until draw by repetition.
Low chance, yes!
I bet $5 chess is a draw with best play.
Low chance, yes!
I bet $5 chess is a draw with best play.
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:
when all else fails use arithmetic. it explains EVERYTHING !
This bears repeating... 
I suspect chess is a draw with a bit LESS than best play (by one side). But please don't hold your breath waiting for a proof, (formal or otherwise).
Oct 9, 2021
0
#8212
zborg wrote:
I suspect chess is a draw with a bit LESS than best play (by one side). But please don't hold your breath waiting for a proof, (formal or otherwise).
Yes, I agree. The path to the draw seems to be fairly wide.
It typically takes more than one mistake to lose.
ultra-powerful cumpewters are still winning games. if that stops then chess izza draw. until then it isnt. SO. its up to those who deny this fact of our current state of chess to prove o/w. and they havent done it yet.
Oct 11, 2021
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#8214
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:
ultra-powerful cumpewters are still winning games. if that stops then chess izza draw. until then it isnt. SO. its up to those who deny this fact of our current state of chess to prove o/w. and they havent done it yet.
This comment would be more persuasive if one side (eg: White) were winning consistently in engine vs engine games. With the win/loss results nearly balanced, the smart money is on chess being a theoretical draw.
prove it (lol !)
What's to prove, he said smart money. As in a bet.
I bet $5 is a draw.
I bet $5 is a draw.
Oct 11, 2021
0
#8218
EuphoniousJones wrote:
When one plays one's best, one does one draw?
What if the opponent also plays his best?
blueemu wrote:
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:
ultra-powerful cumpewters are still winning games. if that stops then chess izza draw. until then it isnt. SO. its up to those who deny this fact of our current state of chess to prove o/w. and they havent done it yet.
This comment would be more persuasive if one side (eg: White) were winning consistently in engine vs engine games. With the win/loss results nearly balanced, the smart money is on chess being a theoretical draw.
Why would one side be winning at all? I think it has more to do with how the computers are programmed than if one side actually has any advantage or not. I just think it's interesting that at top levels of computer play, which is about 700 points higher than any human play, wins still happen.
No, win for black.
Haha. And THAT is why I like you.