Why do Computers show +0.1

Sort:
marcellothearcane

[Comment Deleted]

CraigIreland

You could extend that argument all the way to 0.0 or M[x]. The reason engines don't do this is because they can't analyse deep enough in a reasonable timescale. A heuristic is used to evaluate the position at the end of each search path. If Checkmate or a forced draw for the player with the weakest evaluation, isn't found then the number shown is the best from the heuristic evaluations found in the search. +0.1, for example indicates that the outcome is uncertain with best play but White probably has a slight advantage. If you follow the best engine moves to the end then the match probably results in a draw but as the position advances the analysis changes and the outcome might result in a win for either side.

tygxc

Everything between -0.7 and +0.7 is a draw.

llama36
marcellothearcane wrote:

What's the point

Even in drawn positions there's a stronger side and a weaker side.

llama36
tygxc wrote:

Everything between -0.7 and +0.7 is a draw.

Depends on whether the eval gets closer to zero or larger as the game goes on wink.png

llama36
marcellothearcane wrote:

Would a engine at lower depth show a more unequal position as equal as they would search as if neither side will find the best moves

It just depends on the position.

tygxc

@9

"Or would the Eval bar swing back and forth a lot"
++ Theoretically there are only 3 possible game evaluations: draw, won, lost.
Say 0.0, +1000, -1000.
All engine evaluations are only approximations, that get more accurate at higher depth.
+0.1 basically says most probably a draw, but a very slight winning probability.
Per Kaufmann: between -0.7 and + 0.7 draw, > 0.7 white wins, < -0.7 black wins
Something like +0.5 can become +0.7 and ultimately +1000 at higher and higher depth,
but can also become +0.3 and ultimately 0.0 at higher depth.

llama36
tygxc wrote:

@9

"Or would the Eval bar swing back and forth a lot"
++ Theoretically there are only 3 possible game evaluations: draw, won, lost.
Say 0.0, +1000, -1000.
All engine evaluations are only approximations, that get more accurate at higher depth.
+0.1 basically says most probably a draw, but a very slight winning probability.
Per Kaufmann: between -0.7 and + 0.7 draw, > 0.7 white wins, < -0.7 black wins
Something like +0.5 can become +0.7 and ultimately +1000 at higher and higher depth,
but can also become +0.3 and ultimately 0.0 at higher depth.

Kauffman worked on Rybka, what, over 10 years ago? It's misleading to quote him.

tygxc

@14

"Or at higher depth would it find out its just a draw?"
++ 'If you let the computer run long enough it is a draw' - Carlsen

Martin_Stahl
llama36 wrote:

Kauffman worked on Rybka, what, over 10 years ago? It's misleading to quote him.

 

That quote may be old but he still works on engine evaluation algorithms and tuning with Dragon.

tygxc

@17
More recent quote:
'Statistics of the previous two superfinals show that a Leela book exit of +0.30 or lower is an almost 100% certain draw.' - GM Sadler on TCEC imposed openings

tygxc

@19
The Top Chess Engine Championship has 50 imposed openings to prevent all draws.

EBowie

I always just interpreted +0.1 as a valuation of white having first move/tempo

tygxc

@21
A tempo in the opening is worth 0.33 pawn. Thus oscillation between +0.33 and 0.0 is normal.

magipi
marcellothearcane wrote:

Or is the evaluation just a rough estimation trying to evaluate the position as best as it can in an unsolved position

Basically yes.

However, today's engines are products of 60+ years of hard work by thousands of chess experts and computer experts. So those estimates are not as rough as you might think.

magipi
marcellothearcane wrote:
magipi wrote:
marcellothearcane wrote:

Or is the evaluation just a rough estimation trying to evaluate the position as best as it can in an unsolved position

Basically yes.

However, today's engines are products of 60+ years of hard work by thousands of chess experts and computer experts. So those estimates are not as rough as you might think.

I assume when the pieces get down to 7 pieces or whatever it's now been solved to, it would automatically adjust to a draw or an M evaluation assuming best play. Then if players are inaccurate it would start to fluctuate again?

I don't know how you imagine this, but you are wrong. Positions with 7 (and less) pieces are solved now, for all possible continuations. It is impossible to get out of the tablebases by playing "inaccurate", how would that even be possible?

The other thing is that the engine and the tablebases are two different things. If the engine has access to the tablebases, it is perfect in evaluating those positions, but most engines don't have that.