Why do women get different medals? WGM or simply GM?

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Deagull
oooBASTIooo wrote:
Deagull wrote:

It's a relic from a time when women were believed as lesser [..]"

 

Women are less capable at high levels. Period. In chess it is plain obvious from looking at rankings. There was only 1 female chess player who made it into the top 10 of players during her time and that woman dominated the female circuit since she was 12. 

Political correctness seems to not work well with some people's thought processes...

 

If you level the playing field, women will disappear from most competitions. At this moment, the highest ranking woman is not even in the top 50 and there is a 12 year old boy who would rank 11 in the (adult) women's circuit and first in the women's junior circuit if he was a girl.

 

Look at the proportion of potential women players to potential players who are men purely based upon culture you have to eliminate the entire middle east minus israel, north africa, many asian countries like india, and places like central and parts of west africa. There is a far lower sample size of women who could play furthermore even when they can there's little encouragement to pursue it. There is no evidence that they are intellecually lesser now stop being an incel.

XxThe_DestroyerxX
flamencowizard hat geschrieben:

Something that has bothered me about chess is the distinction between WGM and GM.  To have two different titles implies difference, and in a game of the mind this implies a difference of the mind, hence skill.

Interestingly enough, men and women have different leagues in billiards, bowling, and golf.  I'm sure there are plenty of women as strong, physically, as Tiger Woods.  Bowling and especially billiards seem within women's grasp as well.

Any ideas on why there is this distinction, even in chess?  Shouldn't women simply be called Grandmasters?

 

wem ist as good as gm

XxThe_DestroyerxX

wgm

batgirl
Deagull wrote:
 

It incinuates that women are lesser by putting them before GM now you could argue that it's not saying men are better however there arent any male exclusive titles men are held to the normal standard and holding women to a lesser standard implies the idea that they aren't as capable

Not at all.  It means woman have historically been less successful.  That's something entirely different. 

Stil1

Titles (and title requirements) have changed a lot, historically. At one point, master titles were only granted by a secretive committee, who had no formal stipulations, and would decide who is awarded a chess title via group debate, and agreement, alone.

Also, at one point, players could be stripped of their titles, if a committee felt that their recent performances weren't respectable or impressive enough.

Female titles are a more recent addition, as far as I'm aware. And, like the earlier chess titles (which were considered, exclusively, for male players only), female titles will inevitably go through their own evolution of sorts.

Maybe they'll expand, to include a larger ratings range. Maybe they'll narrow and become more exclusive. Perhaps they'll vanish entirely.

Only time will tell.

Female titles aren't so much about gender and chess ability, though - that's a different debate altogether. Such titles are more about participation, funding, cultural expectations, and all sorts of other complex socio-political systems ...

batgirl
Stil1 wrote:

Female titles are more recent addition, as far as I'm aware.

The first women titles were conferred at the same time as the first overall titles were conferred: 1950. 

Stil1
batgirl wrote:
Stil1 wrote:

Female titles are more recent addition, as far as I'm aware.

The first women titles were conferred at the same time as the first overall titles were conferred: 1950. 

Ah, okay. I stand corrected.

Perhaps I'm conflating FIDE titles with the earlier Soviet titles ...

Nghtstalker
baughman wrote:

I must reply to the guy talking about chess is on the decline and more ppl played during the fisher boom.

  That just isnt true. There were less clubs and tourneys then. So it seemed more ppl were then, then now.

Membership of USCF

69-13488

70-22623

71-26536

72-30844

now the boom comes

73-59250

74-59779

then there was slow decline till 89 when 51043

then a nice steady climb in membership

until we reached a peek in 2003 of 95,388

today there is 82803

chess is still strong and there is more tourneys then ever in the US.

What happened in 2003? poker went boom and we lost some. But still ppl talk doom and gloom and yet chess is still growing all over.

These numbers are slightly misleading if one says Chess is holding it's own.  One has to include the population.  While USCF membership is higher than 1971 it is less than 2003 and the population is growing.

Chess USCF members 1969    13,488      population---207,659,273     .01% 

Chess USCF members  1974   59,979      population---217,114,898      .03%

Chess USCF members  2003   95,388      population---289,815,567  (peak membership)    .03%

Chess USCF members  today  82,803      population---332,915,073   .02%

Sadly it appears that Chess popularity is currently slowly going down in terms of the total population.  While due to the lockdown and Beth it may have an increase in popularity the real test is whether people maintain an interest.  

It seems to me Chess players are a very small minority in the US population and I would bet that is not going to change significantly unless we see another Bobby Fischer but that was a very unique set of circumstances.

batgirl

Most of the post-Fischer growth has been in Scholastic Chess, something the USCF became heavily invested in.   

Nghtstalker
batgirl wrote:

Most of the post-Fischer growth has been in Scholastic Chess, something the USCF became heavily invested in.   

 

I think it is great to promote Chess in schools.  At least some kids have been exposed to it, and some have deeply appreciated it.   But despite that it appears that Chess is not increasingly popular.  I believe the Beth Harmon excitement will also die down.  In Japan and Asia there was a boom in GO due to Hikaru No GO anime series.  Both printed and tv series.  But that died off as other fads took its place.  There are still players who start and love the game because of it.  But the boom is over.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyllVL9fpe0

There is also a new Chinese remake with real actors.  I have not heard of its impact though.

Charlotte

probably a Musacha troll bumped this, so boring 5 years on..

Nghtstalker
Charlotte wrote:

probably a Musacha troll bumped this, so boring 5 years on..

 

lol I did not even notice the original date

 

batgirl
Charlotte wrote:

probably a Musacha troll bumped this, so boring 5 years on..

Haven't heard that name in some time. 

llama47
blueemu wrote:

Wu got nothing. She was a woman.

Seems that's an oversimplification.

https://physicsworld.com/a/overlooked-for-the-nobel-chien-shiung-wu/

llama47

Anyway, why can't both be truth?

Mediocre women are routinely given more recognition than they deserve, while great women are routinely given less than they deserve.

MisterWindUpBird
llama47 wrote:

Anyway, why can't both be truth?

Mediocre women are routinely given more recognition than they deserve, while great women are routinely given less than they deserve.

Highly controversial assessment, Llama, but that does seem to be the state of things these days.

llama47
MisterWindUpBird wrote:
llama47 wrote:

Anyway, why can't both be truth?

Mediocre women are routinely given more recognition than they deserve, while great women are routinely given less than they deserve.

Highly controversial assessment, Llama, but that does seem to be the state of things these days.

I don't know if it's true or not, but it seems somewhat intuitive that both cases can stem from the same sentiment i.e. seeing women as something like children. You praise a child for doing mediocre work, while at the same time not taking them seriously.

mpaetz
batgirl wrote:
Stil1 wrote:

Female titles are more recent addition, as far as I'm aware.

The first women titles were conferred at the same time as the first overall titles were conferred: 1950. 

     The first women's title FIDE introduced was in 1927 when the first Women's World Champion was crowned (Vera Menchick). The WIM title was established in 1950 but the WGM title didn't appear until 1976.

llama47
edot123 wrote:

well, men are just, simply, better than women at chess. the highest female player is only 2600, whereas theres around 70 players higher than that for men, and the highest is 200 rating higher

The best men are better than the best women. Even if participation rates were the same, it doesn't mean the averages are different... and in fact one poster graphed the male vs female FIDE ratings, and they were almost identical.

To put it another way, being male doesn't make you better at chess (and being female doesn't make you worse) but being male may increase your chances of winning the genetic lottery for the potential to be very good at chess.

(The averages will be the same when being male also increases your chances of "winning" the genetic lottery to be miserably bad at chess, and in fact in some non-chess areas this is exactly what happens i.e. equal averages with men representing the best and worst)

llama47
Happy_toilet wrote:
edot123 wrote:

well, men are just, simply, better than women at chess. the highest female player is only 2600, whereas theres around 70 players higher than that for men, and the highest is 200 rating higher

 

OMG!!!!! You can't say that!!!!! Next you'll be saying that black people can sprint faster than white people.

It takes a very different body type to be a good sprinter vs a good marathon runner. The population of Africa has a very high amount of genetic diversity. There are more different types of people Africa than anywhere else in the world. You have the best sprinters and the best marathon runners.

The irony is lumping them all together as "black" when in reality this is only possible because the population is very diverse.

 

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