Why is a castle called a rook?

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Avatar of long_quach

The Russian word

Слон [Cyrillic] means Bishop. But it actually means Elephant.

Hmm. I'm confused. What does it mean?

If it means elephant, why isn't an elephant on a Russian chess board?

Avatar of mpaetz
long_quach wrote:

1. You came out of nowhere and say:

"Are you suggesting that the original Indian chaturanga pieces were engraved flat discs?"

Where did I say that? Nowhere.

Indian pieces are not flat disc like Chinese pieces.

"You admit that Chinese "chess" pieces are not copies of Indian pieces"

No, I said Indian pieces are not flat disc like Chinese pieces in response to you coming up with things out of nowhere.

Those are 2 things. A is not a copy of B, and B is not a copy of A are 2 different thing. One is the original and one is the copy.

Chinese Chess pieces are copies of Indian pieces. Not a copy in 3 dimension form, but copy in name and movement.

Where did i say Uzbekistan?

Why is it inconceivable that other cultures carved pieces to their own tastes?

They can and they do. As I said It's Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the Bruce Lee chess set. It's cannons in the Civil War Chess Set. And obviously a "castle" in the Staunton design.

I am interested in the original Indian game.

You don't have to be an Islamic country to follow a tradition. Europe is introduced to chess through simple geometric figure chessmen. That's when they picked up the baton. They went back to their "graven images" traditions in sets such as the Charlemagne Set, but eventually settled on the Staunton Set swinging back closer to the Shatranj simple geometric set.

2. Copies can have mutations (changes). Yes, Russian chess set is a copy of of a copy of a copy, going back to the original.

@Batgirl and @Ziryab said that ancient Indian sets were boats. @Ziryab put put up that picture. I will hold the possibility that modern set is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of the original boat. But the odds are stacked against boat.

3. LeviAJones wrote:
from Persian رخ rokh, Sanskrit roth, meaning "chariot"

Rook came from rokh.

4. There is no such thing as indisputable truth in history. You can dispute anything in your own mind. There is such a thing as "preponderance of evidence" in court of law. It is a legal concept.

How much do I owe Star Trek? When will my debt be paid?

Just a few points:

You want us to believe that you can tell us what the original Indian chaturanga pieces looked like by citing the evidence of Chinese pieces that look nothing like what you say the Indian pieces must have been, or that the Persian-style pieces (the oldest of which was found in Uzbekistan) must have been faithful copies of the Indian. I remain unconvinced.

The Russian word for the rook is the same as the Russian word for boat and sounds nothing like the Persian/Sanskrit word.

You have as yet provided no link between the Sanskrit and Persian words and the modern English word.

When you provide NO evidence for some of your claims, how can that amount to "a preponderance"?

Avatar of long_quach
mpaetz wrote:

When you provide NO evidence for some of your claims, how can that amount to "a preponderance"?

Exhibit A.

Did you take a look at exhibit A?

@Ziryab

Do you see why I have to post this over and over again?


Avatar of long_quach
long_quach wrote:
mpaetz wrote:

Also, the Russian word for the rook means boat.

What does that mean exactly?

The English word for the rook means "castle".

Show me the Russian word. In Cyrillic.

Also, the Russian word for the rook means boat.

Ok.

Ладья: boat.

The Russian word for the Bishop means elephant.

So what does that prove?

Edit 1:

I'll answer my own question.

On the Russian board,

Слон: Elephant

Ладья: boat

So the original Indian version must be Elephant and Boat?

I don't think Russian is as faithful as Chinese glyphs, off the bat.

Edit 2.

Ферзь: farzin: Vizier

Hmm.

Edit 3:

Шахматы: shah mat

3 out of 4.

That is a high fidelity.

Russian is the closest language to Sanskrit.

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/chinese-chess-came-from-india?page=4#comment-88368785

Hmm. There maybe something to this Boat thing.

Edit 4.

Thailand too.

Hmm.

I'm seriously considering Boat as another original version.

Avatar of long_quach

There are such things as 2 originals. Not one is cover of another.

.

Avatar of long_quach

Not to toot my horn.

Look at the breadth of my understanding in my posts

German

Latin

Italian

French

Spanish

Chinese

Vietnamese

Japanese

English

Ebonics

Russian

Sanskrit

Computer language.

I know a lady in Greece who speaks 5 languages. Greek, Spanish, English, French, may a little bit German.

That's what a person should be. See the world through many points of view and many languages.

Back to tooting your own horn.

Vermeer.

Avatar of Ziryab
long_quach wrote:

Not to toot my horn.

Look at the breadth of my understanding in my posts

German

Latin

Italian

French

Spanish

Chinese

Vietnamese

Japanese

English

Ebonics

Russian

Sanskrit

Computer language.

I know a lady in Greece who speaks 5 languages. Greek, Spanish, English, French, may a little bit German.

That's what a person should be. See the world through many points of view and many languages.

Back to tooting your own horn.

Vermeer.

It has been pointed out the you are wholly and completely in error in what you claimed regarding some of these languages. Rather, your own private ideas about the nature of the language and the meaning of terms within was given priority over comprehension.

Avatar of mpaetz
long_quach wrote:

Not to toot my horn.

Look at the breadth of my understanding in my posts

Russian

That's what a person should be. See the world through many points of view and many languages.

My knowledge of Russian is limited, so perhaps you can elucidate a couple of points concerning their word for "rook". (Sorry, I have no cyrillic keyboard.) The "lad'ya" seems to be an old word, superseded at some point by "ladka". Most online translators yield the English word rook, for the chess piece, but boat, shallop, and longboat sometimes come up. This would explain the ships in Russian chess sets where towers or chariots are more common in other cultures.

Was the softer sound of the earlier word just dropped in the 17th-century revision of the alphabet? Does the old word have a Scandinavian origin dating from Ruirik's time? Was the term different in Cyrill's original Old Slavonic? Thanks for any information you can provide.

Avatar of Averycat23
😅
Avatar of long_quach
mpaetz wrote:

(Sorry, I have no cyrillic keyboard.)

Interpolating from Chinese.

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-equipment/was-gifted-this-interesting-chess-set-with-chinese-mandarin-lettings-and-styles#comment-89333589

Google Translate can turn your keyboard into Cyrillic, comrade.

https://translate.google.com/?sl=ru&tl=en&op=translate

Avatar of long_quach
mpaetz wrote:

(Sorry, I have no cyrillic keyboard.)

True story.

At work, a Japanese lady asked me how to type Japanese on an American keyboard.

I thought about it for an hour on the actual process. The answer was staring me in the face, Vietnamese. Vietnamese is basically the Romanization of Chinese.

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/fun-with-chess/chess-originated-in-china-52038864?page=69#comment-89412413

So there must be a way to type Japanese using the same method. I later learned that that is called Romaji.

Understanding the process, I found out the "Romaji" input tool on the Internet.

Avatar of long_quach

Same story. Portuguese lady.

That one was easy. Except for a few letters such as the French

limaçon

Vietnamese phonemes transcription are based on Portuguese.

I can type a few words from the Bible.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/aa/genesis/1.html

Using this Vietnamese typing tool.

http://just.nicepeople.free.fr/Vietnamese-Typing.htm

princípio
céus
águas
separação
manhã

estações

I can put the right èmphásịs on the right sỳlláblề.

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/why-is-a-castle-called-a-rook?page=10#comment-89216193

Avatar of mpaetz
long_quach wrote:
long_quach wrote:
mpaetz wrote:

Also, the Russian word for the rook means boat.

What does that mean exactly?

The English word for the rook means "castle"

Also, the Russian word for the rook means boat.

Ok.

Ладья: boat.

The Russian word for the Bishop means elephant.

So what does that prove?

That neither the name "rook" nor the chariot-shaped piece it represents traveled to Scandinavia through Russia. As there were no chariots or Persian/Sanskrit words for them in Norse, how could these come to England with the Norsemen that brought chess to the British Isles?

And of course the English word "rook" does NOT mean castle. The various meanings "rook" does have in English are a bird, a scoundrel, a cheat, a clergyman, and the chess piece.

Remember that the original question concerns English chess terms, specifically WHY this word is attached to this chess piece.

Avatar of long_quach
mpaetz wrote:
 

That neither the name "rook" nor the chariot-shaped piece it represents traveled to Scandinavia through Russia. As there were no chariots or Persian/Sanskrit words for them in Norse, how could these come to England with the Norsemen that brought chess to the British Isles?

Remember that the original question concerns English chess terms.

England colonized India. They could have re-familiarize themselves with Indian culture.

0:05 Shiva.

descendant:

Sheeva. A 4 armed female "kombatant" in Mortal Kombat.

Avatar of mpaetz
long_quach wrote:

@mpaetz

You are too stupid to live.

I am still alive enough to post here, so apparently you are mistaken (again).

Avatar of long_quach
mpaetz wrote:
long_quach wrote:

@mpaetz

You are too stupid to live.

I am still alive enough to post here, so apparently you are mistaken (again).

As I said before.

A dead clock is right twice a day.

You were right in rookie coming from a military terminology.

And you are right in Russian word analog to our Rook is Boat.

Russian language is the closest to Sanskrit.

Avatar of choobler

It is from the Persian “rukh” which is a chariot that (I think) is an elephant with a thing on it that looks like a castle. Eventually, the elephant was removed and we were left with only the castle (in chess).

Avatar of mpaetz
long_quach wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
 

That neither the name "rook" nor the chariot-shaped piece it represents traveled to Scandinavia through Russia. As there were no chariots or Persian/Sanskrit words for them in Norse, how could these come to England with the Norsemen that brought chess to the British Isles?

Remember that the original question concerns English chess terms.

England colonized India. They could have re-familiarize themselves with Indian culture.

Englishmen colonized India in the 18th-19th centuries. Chess had been played in England since the 13th century. Was time travel involved in your "explanation" or are you just extremely ignorant?

Avatar of long_quach
mpaetz wrote:

England colonized India. They could have re-familiarize themselves with Indian culture.

Englishmen colonized India in the 18th-19th centuries. Chess had been played in England since the 13th century. Was time travel involved in your "explanation" or are you just extremely ignorant?

Chronology is a weakness of "bro-science", i.e. my bro told me, and then I tell my bro, and then he tells his bro . . .

Avatar of mpaetz
choobler wrote:

It is from the Persian “rukh” which is a chariot that (I think) is an elephant with a thing on it that looks like a castle. Eventually, the elephant was removed and we were left with only the castle (in chess).

The question is, How did this Persian word supposedly get to England? The rooks in English chess pieces do not look like chariots, chess came to England with the Norsemen who had neither chariots no any knowledge of the Persian language, and all the other nations around England have rooks that look like towers and are called towers.