Why study endgames first?

Sort:
bean_Fischer
waffllemaster wrote:

It's easy to visualize 10 moves ahead by the time a player is rated 1800.

It's hard/impossible to see 10 moves of good quality ahead unless there are forcing moves or a very simplified position.

In most positions it's completely useless to look 10 moves ahead.

why useless?

TetsuoShima
SmyslovFan wrote:
pdve wrote:

i wondr if its a blitz thing. in blitz endgame knowledge could not mattr less. but in long games, endgame knowledge may make th difference between winning and losing.

This is false. 

Many of the best blitz players were also the best endgame players. The more you know about the endgame, the better you can play when low on time. As Jonathon Speelman, one of the great endgame experts, said, if you know the endgame you can play well when short on time by following the rules. (Rules, such as rooks belong behind passed pawns.) In the endgame, the rules are correct about 95% of the time. 

It's no coincidence that players such as Fischer, Ulf Andersson, Tigran Petrosian, Anatoly Karpov and Jose Capablanca were among the best blitz players of their generations.

Oh, and Tetsuo, in many positions, 1800 rated players can easily think 10 moves ahead!  

well easily seems a bit far stretched for a 1800 i would suspect. Well im a really weak player probably rated 1000 if i had a rating, but when i look at the stuff Silman has classified as 1800 endgame  material, its really hard to believe that a 1800 player can think 10 moves ahead even the hard the way. Maybe my memory is tricking me but i thikn even Kasparov said in an interview that sometimes he thinks as much as 10 moves or more ahead, practically saying that 10 moves are really really much. 

Well maybe i never reach 1800, but i would still suspect they are fairly weak players, maybe they would beat me every game, but i have a really hard time believing they can look 10 moves ahead easily unless its a very very simplified endgame.

TetsuoShima

anyway Smyslov its still a good quote by Speelman.

ThrillerFan

Another thing to keep in mind.  If you can't coordinate your 4 pieces on the board (Let's say, your King, a Rook, and 2 pawns), and figure out how Black is going to coordinate his 3 (his King, a Rook, and 1 pawn), for a total of 7 pieces on the board, how on freaking earth are you going to be able to coordinate or figure out what's going on with 32 pieces on the board?  Picture juggling.  Are you going to juggle 3 things in the beginning, or 5 (or more)?  Also, are you going to juggle round things like balls, or odd shaped objects like bowling pins?  And are you going to juggle 3 non-sharp symmetrical objects that are all the same size, shape, and weight, like 3 tennis balls, or are you going to juggle 3 odd shaped different objects of different weight, like an apple, a bowling ball, and a birthday cake with lit candles?

Hopefully the point has been made clear.  If you don't know what to do with very few pieces on the board, you'll have no clue to how operate all your pieces at once.

SmyslovFan

Here's a rather mundane example of being able to see far more than 10 moves ahead. The stronger the player, the less they will need to actually calculate out the moves.

TetsuoShima

you dont need calculation for that smyslov

SmyslovFan

And here's another one, that is a bit more challenging:

atarw

easier i guess

MJ4H

You learn endgames first because it is important to know what types of things you are trying to acheive in the rest of the game before you start learning how to acheive them. 

zborg

Endgame knowledge (for Game in 3/5 up to about Game in 20/5) harvests lots and lots of wins, against opponents rated under USCF 1800.

Same is true of being strong with the black pieces.

Capablanca had it right about the endgame.  But it takes patience.  Many players simply don't have that capacity.

At bottom, you learn the intrinsic capacity of the individual pieces.  At worst you're just a little bored, (or very entralled by the terrain).

Endgame knowledge is finite, but still huge.  If that's what you like, Knock Yourself Out, because it comes with a very big payoff.  Smile

waffllemaster
TetsuoShima wrote:

well easily seems a bit far stretched for a 1800 i would suspect. Well im a really weak player probably rated 1000 if i had a rating, but when i look at the stuff Silman has classified as 1800 endgame  material, its really hard to believe that a 1800 player can think 10 moves ahead even the hard the way. Maybe my memory is tricking me but i thikn even Kasparov said in an interview that sometimes he thinks as much as 10 moves or more ahead, practically saying that 10 moves are really really much. 

Well maybe i never reach 1800, but i would still suspect they are fairly weak players, maybe they would beat me every game, but i have a really hard time believing they can look 10 moves ahead easily unless its a very very simplified endgame.

First of all, anyone who can play a blindfold game can effectively visualize a whole game ahead... lets say 50 moves.

The point is 10 (or 50) quality moves ahead is very hard / impossible unless there are forcing moves or a simplified position (I already said this but you seem to have missed my post).

I also noted that looking 10 moves ahead is usually useless in a real game... you don't need that many to choose a good move.

 

Kasparov explains in this video (skip to 1:05):

"the lengths of my ability to calculate depends very much on the character of the position." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2KKfOGaR_w

He also says that sometimes you only need to see a few moves ahead and sometimes you need to look 10 moves ahead.

alec86
pdve wrote:

Doesn't it make mor sense to study openings, then middlegame and finally ending. If you make mistakes in th opening, you ar unlikely to have an equal middlegame and if you dont play th middlegame well then th ending will be lost no mattr how much you have practiced it.

No it doesn't,

He or she should study and master the elements and the endgame first then the student should study the middle game and the openings in direct relationship to the endgame they'll see chess as a unified harmonious whole.

By studying in ordered systematic way they'll avoid creating a rotten foundation in their fundamental knowledge which will stay with them for a life time unless it's corrected!

landwehr

I eat spaghetti!

zborg

Spaghetti is the staff of life.  Call it pasta and you're probably not Italian.  Wink

Cory457
landwehr wrote:

endgames easier to learn than opening or middle game

Disagree endgame are very tactical and require precise thinking openings don't they are just more boring endgame are harder

RussBell

Improving Your Chess - Resources for Beginners and Beyond...

https://www.chess.com/blog/RussBell/improving-your-chess-resources-for-beginners-and-beyond