Will computers ever solve chess?

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Avatar of ponz111

 i don't think someone who has just started learning has played millions of games. Laughing

Avatar of JeffGreen333
camter wrote:
JeffGreen333 wrote:
camter wrote:

Indeed, History, and statistics, as has been said here by players more experienced and skilled than I, indicate that the game is a draw with best play by both sides. White historically recoeds more wins for white, because of the beast called the "initiative", which seems to consist in a "half" tempo, a small space advantage, as a small restriction on the availabilty of good moves by the non-holder of the initiative, not to say the confidence that the first player has in controlling somewhat the style and layout of the game.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the second player had the right to refuse to accept the first move of the first player, so that they could blunt that advantage, whereupon the first player would then be allowed to make a second choice. I suspect that it would blunt the initiative to a small extent.

In that case, white could open with d4 and if it was rejected, he could open with Nf3 and transpose into the same opening, if he wants to play the London System, the Colle, the Queen's Gambit, etc.   

I was aware of the possibility of transpositions of that nature, but it does mean that White has to steer into them to get his favourite.

But my plan would still see White's Opening advantage have the edge taken off it a little, expecially if Black was hoping for 1 e4 and knew your secret.

Yes, it would work well against e4 players.  I agree.   White can't always get in e4 if he doesn't play it on move 1.   However, he could play a King's Indian Attack and get in e4 eventually.

Avatar of JeffGreen333
[COMMENT DELETED]
Avatar of ponz111

What would be interesting and something i wish they would do on chess.com is "tandem chess" You have two teams of two players.

One team plays White and the other team plays Black.

and you switch players every move. team mates cannot consult with each other. 

Get 4 of our masters to agree to this--for all to see--would be fun.

Avatar of ponz111

sorry but your wording was ambiguous to me.

Avatar of Rolandyang
This is pointless we will never solve chess because we are not as smart as god or as strong.He is so smart we are idiots to him not end of discussion
Avatar of Rolandyang
I mean now end of discussion
Avatar of ponz111

if there is a god...anyway discussions on religion should not be here--try Open Discussion where all types of discussions are allowed.

Avatar of LegoPirateSenior
s23bog wrote:
LegoPirateSenior wrote:

Interesting. Quoting an actual post is now "revisionary."

You may have quoted a post, but it wasn't my post.  I never said that there was no chance that black could force a win.  I decided to take the position that black does not have a forced win, but, as I have stated, I am quite capable of taking positions that are wrong.  Sometimes, I even take positions I don't believe are right.

You did, in post #1809, which is still on page 91 of this very thread. All I did with it is highlight the contradiction in blue, when quoting.

Avatar of SmyslovFan

Just reposting in case s23bog decides to edit the post.

 

  • 6 days ago · Quote · #1809

    s23bog 

    I wholeheartedly believe that anything is possible.

     

    That being said, I am taking the position that black has no chance, in the game of chess, to force a win.

Avatar of Jimmykay
Rolandyang wrote:
I mean now end of discussion

 

Roland ended the discussion.

Avatar of ponz111
Jimmykay wrote:
Rolandyang wrote:
I mean now end of discussion

 

Roland ended the discussion.

"end of discussion" means "My mind is made up and I do not want to hear anything else" This is often used when a theist discusses religion.

Avatar of JubilationTCornpone
s23bog wrote:

There are a lot of opinions expressed, here.  Seems strange for something that should be a clear and decisive solution/proof.  How can this be actually solved, rather then opined about?

I have posted quite a bit of math and fact on this thread but it is mostly ignored.  Chess will never be solved.  You can have all the faith in humanity that you want.  You can believe that anything is possible.  It doesn't change anything.

Without going back through all of it, there are some reasonable estimates of the "size of chess," and there are some solid mathematical papers written around these estimates.  10^120 is a commonly given number.  This might be derived by taking 16 pieces, 16 pawns, 4 possible promotions per pawn, on 64 squares, and working out how many possible arrangements exist for those pieces.  The number of atoms in the universe is commonly estimated around 10^80.  Thus, there area 10^40 times as many chess positions as there are atoms in the universe (that is a a one with 40 zeros), suggesting that chess not only can't be solved but if the solution were given to you by God, you couldn't store it in computer memory, even if you could use all the material in the universe for memory.

Quantum computers, when and if they are ever made viable, still can't solve chess, for the reason given above, and also because the common assumption that quantum computers will be able to solve NP-complete problems is probably wrong anyway.

But no one cares.  They want to say "oh, people are always saying things are impossible."  And indeed, there are many things that are impossible.  Pi can not be computed to the final digit.  And chess will never be solved by computers.  But this thread will continue until the death of chess.com, regardless.

Avatar of ponz111
s23bog wrote:

I'll discuss "religion" with you til the coming of Christ, or the death of one of us, if you like.  God willing, of course.

Sorry but chess.com does not want us to discuss religion here.

There is a special place to discuss religion in chess.com and it is

 "Open Discussion" If you wish to discuss religion--that is the place to go.

Avatar of ponz111
RCMorea wrote:
s23bog wrote:

There are a lot of opinions expressed, here.  Seems strange for something that should be a clear and decisive solution/proof.  How can this be actually solved, rather then opined about?

I have posted quite a bit of math and fact on this thread but it is mostly ignored.  Chess will never be solved.  You can have all the faith in humanity that you want.  You can believe that anything is possible.  It doesn't change anything.

Without going back through all of it, there are some reasonable estimates of the "size of chess," and there are some solid mathematical papers written around these estimates.  10^120 is a commonly given number.  This might be derived by taking 16 pieces, 16 pawns, 4 possible promotions per pawn, on 64 squares, and working out how many possible arrangements exist for those pieces.  The number of atoms in the universe is commonly estimated around 10^80.  Thus, there area 10^40 times as many chess positions as there are atoms in the universe (that is a a one with 40 zeros), suggesting that chess not only can't be solved but if the solution were given to you by God, you couldn't store it in computer memory, even if you could use all the material in the universe for memory.

Quantum computers, when and if they are ever made viable, still can't solve chess, for the reason given above, and also because the common assumption that quantum computers will be able to solve NP-complete problems is probably wrong anyway.

But no one cares.  They want to say "oh, people are always saying things are impossible."  And indeed, there are many things that are impossible.  Pi can not be computed to the final digit.  And chess will never be solved by computers.  But this thread will continue until the death of chess.com, regardless.

RCMorea is correct regarding "solving chess"--it cannot be done.

We can have a very educated guess as to the result of chess games played with no errors but chess cannot be "solved"

Avatar of camter

I pride myself as being among the first to suggest that White has a forced loss form the start of the game. I would love it if that were true, as then life itself would be fair. But, experience at Chess soon indicates that Black has to play very accurately to stay in the game, especially in the first few moves. 

For some strange reason, we do find that Black does eventually "equalise" if he plays accurately, or at least the Initiative of White slowly dissipates.

It has to have something to do with tempo, space and centre, but very little with material. But, White generally has no "problem child" whereas Black often has to think hard about where to properly place his Queenside minor pieces in the development stage.

Avatar of lfPatriotGames

I wonder how many math/science/computer problems that were impossible have been solved. I think the difference between tic tac toe and checkers is probably about the same difference as checkers and chess. Compared to checkers, tic tac toe is easy. And compared to chess, checkers is easy. I agree computers (even whatever quantum computers are) will probably never solve chess, but what about the thing that replaces quantum computers? What about the thing that can make 10 to the 100 calculations per second? What about that thing? Just because we haven't imagined it yet doesn't mean it can never happen. Again, when Jeremiah Washington in 1783 said man would never walk on the moon, he was right. THEN. He wouldn't be right now.

Avatar of JeffGreen333
lfPatriotGames wrote:

I wonder how many math/science/computer problems that were impossible have been solved. I think the difference between tic tac toe and checkers is probably about the same difference as checkers and chess. Compared to checkers, tic tac toe is easy. And compared to chess, checkers is easy. I agree computers (even whatever quantum computers are) will probably never solve chess, but what about the thing that replaces quantum computers? What about the thing that can make 10 to the 100 calculations per second? What about that thing? Just because we haven't imagined it yet doesn't mean it can never happen. Again, when Jeremiah Washington in 1783 said man would never walk on the moon, he was right. THEN. He wouldn't be right now.

We can see the moon.   We can't see the solution of chess.   A better comparison might be walking on a planet in a distant galaxy vs. solving chess.   Not sure what Jeremiah Washington was smoking, but it would have been obvious to some people that we'd walk on the moon some day.   The computer required to do that would fit on the tip of a needle, nowadays.   Maybe they couldn't envision rockets yet?   

Avatar of Omega60

I'll stick to my guns in that I believe that chess will be solved in the next 40-50 years.  And I also believe that it will have little effect on the play of the game other than to change which openings are popular.  

Avatar of JeffGreen333

I could see certain passive/irregular openings (for white) being "solved" to be draws in 40-50 years.  

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