Winner of Women's vs Men's chess champions should get the title WORLD Champion

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Avatar of josephyossi

because men wcc are called world champions but they are called women world champions so they should verse the women champ v men champ and whoever wins is the world champ

Avatar of blueemu
PrivatePilotBartram wrote:

All female titles have the w- tag attached to it. Women can not get the "World Chess Champion" with out the "woman" attached.

Wrong.

All FEMALE-ONLY titles have a W-tag attached. There's nothing preventing women from competing in open tournaments with men and earning the same GM (not WGM) title that men get... in fact, as of 2021 39 women have already done so.

Judit Polgar became a GM (not a WGM) at 15; and she even made it into the Candidates in 2005, and if she had won that tournament she (instead of Topalov) would have been the one playing against Kramnik in 2006 for the title of World Chess Champion. She made the Candidates again in 2007.

Your trolling would be more effective if you did a bit of research first.

Avatar of ChessLebaneseSalah

the WCC that Magnus has been winning since 2013 is not men WCC, its WCC overall (both women and men, and other genders if it applies). Judit Polgar once played in the Candidates for the WCC, and it was allowed because a woman could challenge for the WCC, while a man Cannot challenge for the Women's world champion.

Hopefully its clearer

Avatar of blueemu
ChessLebaneseSalah wrote:

the WCC that Magnus has been winning since 2013 is not men WCC, its WCC overall (both women and men, and other genders if it applies). Judit Polgar once played in the Candidates for the WCC, and it was allowed because a woman could challenge for the WCC, while a man Cannot challenge for the Women's world champion.

Hopefully its clearer

Twice? 2005 and 2007?

Avatar of mpaetz

     FIDE cannot make all chess tournaments open to men and women. Some nations do not allow men and women to mix in public events. For example, in Saudi Arabia women have only recently become able to drive. There are still women in prison there who were caught driving a few years ago before liberalization began. Some women boycotted the 2017 Women's World Championship in Iran because they were unwilling to adhere to the strict dress codes. And the Taliban just regained control of Afghanistan and has closed schools and most public activities to females. How can you tell female chess players in places like that (and there are many around the world) that they should just go play in men's events?

     Women's titles originated many years ago when women were a rarity in organized chess. There were very few GMs 70 years ago, so there were very few tournaments strong enough enable participants to earn GM norms. Most of these were invitation-only and almost never invited women. Nona Gaprindashvili was the first woman to become a regular GM, and she needed special consideration from FIDE as she couldn't get into enough qualifying tournaments to total 24 games. (She played 23.) Even as a GM she couldn't get invitations to top tournaments and continued to play mostly in women's events. Again, saying "just play in men's events" would have been a joke.

     Women have it much better in today's chess world than Gaprindashvili did, but there are still barriers preventing universal equal conditions. Perhaps the requirements for women's titles can be gradually stiffened to eventually be the same as men's. As in so many other areas, we all hope things will be much better 50 years from now than they were 50 years ago.

     

Avatar of blueemu
mpaetz wrote:

    ... For example, in Saudi Arabia women have only recently become able to drive...

Thereby ruining one of my quips.

Whenever a friend of mine used to complain about nearly being run off the road by a woman driver, I would reply "This wouldn't be a problem in Saudi Arabia".

Not anymore... sad.png

Avatar of Warbler
muskiewhisperer wrote:
Also calling this one a troll, sorry.

just whom are you calling a troll? 

Avatar of Warbler
mpaetz wrote:

     FIDE cannot make all chess tournaments open to men and women. Some nations do not allow men and women to mix in public events. For example, in Saudi Arabia women have only recently become able to drive. There are still women in prison there who were caught driving a few years ago before liberalization began. Some women boycotted the 2017 Women's World Championship in Iran because they were unwilling to adhere to the strict dress codes. And the Taliban just regained control of Afghanistan and has closed schools and most public activities to females. How can you tell female chess players in places like that (and there are many around the world) that they should just go play in men's events?

In that case, I would suggest that FIDE take all FIDE affiliated events out of those countries.   FIDE should not sanction sexism and bigotry against women.  At the very least don't have any events that have anything to do with competing for candidates's tournament and  the World Championship  title.

Avatar of blueemu
Warbler wrote:

In that case, I would suggest that FIDE take all FIDE affiliated events out of those countries.   FIDE should not sanction sexism and bigotry against women.  At the very least don't have any events that have anything to do with competing for candidates's tournament and  the World Championship  title.

Once you start using chess boycots for political purposes, where does it end?

Pressuring China over the Uyghurs? Pressuring Russia over the Donbass? Pressuring Turkey over the Kurds? 

Avatar of mpaetz
blueemu wrote:
mpaetz wrote:

    ... For example, in Saudi Arabia women have only recently become able to drive...

Thereby ruining one of my quips.

Whenever a friend of mine used to complain about nearly being run off the road by a woman driver, I would reply "This wouldn't be a problem in Saudi Arabia".

Not anymore...

Off the main point of the forum--

     When I was a child (1950s) I often heard the derogatory expression "woman driver" applied to anyone driving erratically. I wondered why. When I became old enough to drive, I had a few chances to drive  behemoth old cars from the years before power steering, power brakes and efficient clutches were available and I found out how much strength it took to operate them. A small woman would likely have had great difficulties.

Avatar of brianchesscake

Did you miss the part where Hou Yifan (#1 female player) got crushed by Magnus 10-1 in an online qualifier or something? He gave her a pity draw in the last round. It was all pretty laughable.

Avatar of mpaetz
Warbler wrote:

In that case, I would suggest that FIDE take all FIDE affiliated events out of those countries.   FIDE should not sanction sexism and bigotry against women.  At the very least don't have any events that have anything to do with competing for candidates's tournament and  the World Championship  title.

How exactly does that benefit women chess players in those countries?

Avatar of Warbler
mpaetz wrote:
Warbler wrote:

In that case, I would suggest that FIDE take all FIDE affiliated events out of those countries.   FIDE should not sanction sexism and bigotry against women.  At the very least don't have any events that have anything to do with competing for candidates's tournament and  the World Championship  title.

How exactly does that benefit women chess players in those countries?

How it does it benefit them to bar them from competing with the men?  To bar them from events that have to do with competing for the World Chess Championship? 

Also it might pressure those countries to change their ways if they want FIDE sanctioned events in their countries.

Avatar of Warbler
blueemu wrote:
Warbler wrote:

In that case, I would suggest that FIDE take all FIDE affiliated events out of those countries.   FIDE should not sanction sexism and bigotry against women.  At the very least don't have any events that have anything to do with competing for candidates's tournament and  the World Championship  title.

Once you start using chess boycots for political purposes, where does it end?

Pressuring China over the Uyghurs? Pressuring Russia over the Donbass? Pressuring Turkey over the Kurds? 

You have a point. But, I just don't think it is fair to bar women from events, especially those that have to do with competing for the World Chess Championship.    If the title the Magnus Carlsen holds is truly the overall World Chess Championship, then women and those that identify as other genders,  need the same opportunities as men.

Avatar of kartikeya_tiwari

It's just sexist in many ways. It's sexist against men that women get prizes for being much weaker and it's sexist against women that they are thought to be second class players and get a pat on the back "u did good for a girl!"

Chess world is pretty sexist overall, both against men and women and it all stems from having different men and women groups. Just unify them and most of the issues would get solved automatically

Avatar of nklristic
Warbler wrote:
blueemu wrote:
Warbler wrote:

In that case, I would suggest that FIDE take all FIDE affiliated events out of those countries.   FIDE should not sanction sexism and bigotry against women.  At the very least don't have any events that have anything to do with competing for candidates's tournament and  the World Championship  title.

Once you start using chess boycots for political purposes, where does it end?

Pressuring China over the Uyghurs? Pressuring Russia over the Donbass? Pressuring Turkey over the Kurds? 

You have a point. But, I just don't think it is fair to bar women from events, especially those that have to do with competing for the World Chess Championship.    If the title the Magnus Carlsen holds is truly the overall World Chess Championship, then women and those that identify as other genders,  need the same opportunities as men.

That is correct, but everyone knows that strongest tournaments are mostly in Europe, with some others in countries where women can also compete freely. For getting titles, people would most likely have to travel to those countries in any case, and afterwards to play in those strong tournaments as well.

It is not ideal, but in general this a political issue that transcends chess world. As far as chess goes, woman can become a world champion. In practice except Polgar, nobody else was close enough. In future that could change.


Avatar of kartikeya_tiwari
nklristic wrote:
Warbler wrote:
blueemu wrote:
Warbler wrote:

In that case, I would suggest that FIDE take all FIDE affiliated events out of those countries.   FIDE should not sanction sexism and bigotry against women.  At the very least don't have any events that have anything to do with competing for candidates's tournament and  the World Championship  title.

Once you start using chess boycots for political purposes, where does it end?

Pressuring China over the Uyghurs? Pressuring Russia over the Donbass? Pressuring Turkey over the Kurds? 

You have a point. But, I just don't think it is fair to bar women from events, especially those that have to do with competing for the World Chess Championship.    If the title the Magnus Carlsen holds is truly the overall World Chess Championship, then women and those that identify as other genders,  need the same opportunities as men.

That is correct, but everyone knows that strongest tournaments are mostly in Europe, with some others in countries where women can also compete freely. For getting titles, people would most likely have to travel to those countries in any case, and afterwards to play in those strong tournaments as well.

It is not ideal, but in general this a political issue that transcends chess world. As far as chess goes, woman can become a world champion. In practice except Polgar, nobody else was close enough. In future that could change.


I really don't like when people say that judit was close to being the world champion, she wasn't. She got into candidates where she did exceptionally bad.  That's like saying andreikin was close to becoming the world champion(he was a part of candidates in 2014

Avatar of nklristic

She was a top 10 player (her best was 8th, in comparrison Andreikin was 18th in the world), she has beaten multiple world champions as well, and she has played in the Candidates twice. So she was a world class player at her peak. I said close in a sense that she was the only one who could remotely do it. I didn't mean she was as close as Caruana for instance or I don't know... Korchnoi. And for me she is the proof that it is possible for a woman to challenge the title in the future, if someone even stronger comes into picture. 

Avatar of FaceCrusher

This literally already exists. Any woman can play in the top tournaments and qualify for the candidates tournament to play the World Champion, and meet him in a match if she wins the Candidates. If she beats him she can be The World Champion. It's that simple and it needn't be anymore complicated than that. In fact Judit Polgar did play in many top tournaments, beating many very highly rated players, and I think a World Champion or two. I don't know if she beat any reigning world champions, but nothing was stopping her from becoming World Champion if she wanted to and she was good enough. Same for any woman.

Avatar of mpaetz
Warbler wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
Warbler wrote:

In that case, I would suggest that FIDE take all FIDE affiliated events out of those countries.   FIDE should not sanction sexism and bigotry against women.  At the very least don't have any events that have anything to do with competing for candidates's tournament and  the World Championship  title.

How exactly does that benefit women chess players in those countries?

How it does it benefit them to bar them from competing with the men?  To bar them from events that have to do with competing for the World Chess Championship? 

Also it might pressure those countries to change their ways if they want FIDE sanctioned events in their countries.

     FIDE does NOT ban these women from competing with men. Governments in many nations ban women from competing with men. If you think that societies that have held these kind of beliefs for many centuries will suddenly change their laws (in many cases their religion) just because some international chess organization disapproves I'd be interested to know what you've been smoking.

     Suggesting that women in these nations travel to Europe at great expense to play chess is ludicrous. Many of these nations will not allow women to travel (even within their own country) unless accompanied by a close male relative. And if there are no FIDE events in their own countries, how can they ever get a FIDE rating high enough to make them eligible to get into the top sections of these European tournaments? If they can't do that, how can they earn titles?

     All this "ban female titles" and "sanction misogynistic nations" idiocy will only hurt the people you say you are trying to help.