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Draw by Insufficient Material

  • #61
    bushjumper wrote:

    I had a queen and 30 seconds on the clock, my opponent just had his king he ran out of time, yet it was declared a draw because of insufficient material. I could have check mated him, I feel cheated!

     

    If that happened then you actually ran out of time. The server keeps the official clocks, not the client, and in order for that result to happen, you would have had to flag.

     

    Edit: read the other replies and see it was actually stalemate frustrated.png

  • #62

    oops didn't notice since someone posted so recently lol

  • #63

    @Martin_Stahl @CheesyPuns

     

    Apparently the final position of bushjumper's game after 76. Kh4 Qxf4+ (capturing a pawn) 77. Kh5 Kf5?? was like this.

     

     

    Clearly the game ended in a stalemate, not by insufficient material. The time factor was not to blame, since White had 10 seconds left while Black had 36 seconds left at this point of time.

     

    Come to think of it, Black has sufficient material to mate, but White does not. Rearranging my thoughts, these become as follows: White does not have sufficient material, but the game is a draw. Hmmm. Draw and insufficient material at the same time. Does it mean...

  • #64

    The more I thought about this rule, the more I realized that this is an illogical & inconsistent rule.  IF there is a clock involved, you should have to checkmate your opponent or force a draw before your time expires.  Stalemating when you dominated on time defeats the purpose of using a clock in the first place... say for example, you have only one pawn and your opponent has his/her Q and a knight and a pawn and with more time you aren't holding up but (this is all presuming of course the pawn wouldn't promote which in the vast majority of games it would not) you actually win in this scenario and not draw... then you could look at another situation where you have just say your knight and a pawn to your opponents 3 pawns and you have them crushed in time and could still (with more time) capture those pawns to win or draw but then your opponent wins on time when "if there would have been more time", it was clearly playing out to your favor.  I call bull$hit on this rule. 

  • #65

    poof

  • #66

    If a player does not have a major piece (rook, queen) nor a potential to obtain one (pawn), nor a knight/bishop- or bishop/bishop-combination, I think it's reasonable to call it a draw by insufficient material, even if technically you can construct a mating position with the aid of the other side's pieces. It may seem a bit philosophical, but the idea is that the "stronger" side has no way to force mate. It seems fair. However, I don't know if two knights by themselves would be "drawn by insufficient material." 

  • #67
    scott88688 wrote:

    If a player does not have a major piece (rook, queen) nor a potential to obtain one (pawn), nor a knight/bishop- or bishop/bishop-combination, I think it's reasonable to call it a draw by insufficient material, even if technically you can construct a mating position with the aid of the other side's pieces. It may seem a bit philosophical, but the idea is that the "stronger" side has no way to force mate. It seems fair. However, I don't know if two knights by themselves would be "drawn by insufficient material." 

     

    Unfortunately, the FIDE rules are in support of 'every single possibility', not just reasonable ones. Even the endgame of a king and a knight can win versus a king and a rook, though the mate can hardly be forced. The same applies for king and knight versus king and bishop, king and knight versus king and knight and so on. Note that a king and a bishop can never force mate against a king and a rook assuming no other pieces or pawns are present on the board; thus, if the side having the rook drops on time, the game is immediately declared a draw.

     

    Under the FIDE rules, the endgame of king and two knights versus a bare king is a win for the king and two knights if the side having the bare king runs out of time.

  • #68
    scott88688 wrote:

     It may seem a bit philosophical, but the idea is that the "stronger" side has no way to force mate.

    The same can be said about the starting position. White has no way to force a mate... So would you give a draw too? If not, where to draw the line? How about K+R vs. K+R? Or K+Q+R+5 pawns vs. K+ 2 pawns.

    FIDE rules are pretty logical and consistent. As long as you still CAN lose a position on the board, you will lose if you run out of time.

  • #69
    helgoland wrote:

    Hello chess.com

    this seems to be a VERY old thread about that topic. i experienced a wired situation, when i had a knight left and my oponent had a bishop and one pawn. he ran out of time and the game ended draw. i dont get it.

    i always thought, that insufficient material means "even a self-mate is impossible". so why was my game drawn then?

    thx in advance!

    here is the link to that game:

    http://www.chess.com/livechess/game?id=967908354

    You're right. According to the official FIDE rules that should be a win for Black. However, chess.com is a private site, so they are entitled to use their private rules...

  • #70
    Jenium wrote:
    helgoland wrote:

    Hello chess.com

    this seems to be a VERY old thread about that topic. i experienced a wired situation, when i had a knight left and my oponent had a bishop and one pawn. he ran out of time and the game ended draw. i dont get it.

    i always thought, that insufficient material means "even a self-mate is impossible". so why was my game drawn then?

    thx in advance!

    here is the link to that game:

    http://www.chess.com/livechess/game?id=967908354

    You're right. According to the official FIDE rules that should be a win for Black. However, chess.com is a private site, so they are entitled to use their private rules...

     

    ...which declares such positions as draws because a king and a knight alone, without other friendly pieces or pawns on board cannot reasonably force checkmate.

     

    Imagine this position occurs at a critical moment and White loses on time just after 3...Rxg8, before the mate 4. Nf7# can be administered (for example, White has 0.1 second left after 3. Qg8+ and White does not use premoves to play his games, each move by White taking 0.3 seconds).

     

     

  • #71
    Hi how do i a live
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