It is a forced mate for white, under any possible legal move sequence, but he did not make it on time.
So: A draw. The rules are clear about this.
White's time runs out in this position. What's the result according to FIDE rules?
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"Mate ends the game." So if white is moving a piece which would deliver mate, but hasn't placed the piece on the board, and black has called the flag, the time forfeit stands. If the TD calls the flag, that is an illegal action, and white should be awarded two extra minute. (and the TD should be removed for breaking the rules.) However if anyone but black announces that the flag has fallen, the TD has to decide if black would have noticed that on their own to decide if that move is allowed.
Floating-Duck wrote:
It is really up to the arbiter. If they think it is an interesting game and would like to see what happens they will ignore the clock.
If an arbiter gave this as a draw, I don't think they would be invited to arbitrate any more tournaments, ever. It's a win on time .... now enough of this foolishness. 
Explanation: obviously white has a forced win, disregarding time. But to claim a draw, white has to stop the clock within two minutes of the time it's due to fall and then claim it. Otherwise, black wins on time.
Black has no way of winning the game, help-mate is not possible and all moves lead to forced mate for white.. According to FIDE rules, it's a draw.
Martin_Stahl wrote:
I understand the rules and role of the clock.
In your final hypothetical, what matters is the position on the board at the time of flag fall; i.e. the move has to have been completed, not in progress. If checkmate/stalemate is not on the board and the flag fall is claimed (or in the case of FIDE rules and the arbiter sees the flag fall) then white can't get the win. The only other question that has to be answered is if black can checkmate by any legal series of moves. If there is a legal series of moves that leads to black getting checkmate, then black wins. If there isn't, then it is a draw.
@Martin_Stahl @jonesmikechess
Several months ago in my local chess club, I was a spectator in an 8-player round robin tournament in the club. The first 3 games in one of the rounds had concluded, leaving the final game still ongoing.
At the conclusion of this game, the situation was that Black was moving his rook along the h-file towards h1 to land a checkmate (Rh1#) when his flag suddenly dropped before he placed the rook on h1 (Black's flag fell before he dropped the rook on h1).
The arbiter (with qualification of IA) did not notice the situation as he was not observing the game. but I and the two players conveyed the situation to the arbiter. The arbiter ruled the game as a win for Black on the basis that the occurrence of the mate-in-progress took precedence over the time.
Aug 20, 2017
0
#48
Optimissed wrote:
Explanation: ... Otherwise, black wins on time.
Under FIDE rules, that is not correct. The only way black can get the win is if there is a legal series of moves that black can mate white. That doesn't exist. Thus, it is a draw. The pertinent rules are posted in this topic and anyone can go look them up.
Aug 20, 2017
0
#49
eric0022 wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:
I understand the rules and role of the clock.
In your final hypothetical, what matters is the position on the board at the time of flag fall; i.e. the move has to have been completed, not in progress. If checkmate/stalemate is not on the board and the flag fall is claimed (or in the case of FIDE rules and the arbiter sees the flag fall) then white can't get the win. The only other question that has to be answered is if black can checkmate by any legal series of moves. If there is a legal series of moves that leads to black getting checkmate, then black wins. If there isn't, then it is a draw.
@Martin_Stahl @jonesmikechess
Several months ago in my local chess club, I was a spectator in an 8-player round robin tournament in the club. The first 3 games in one of the rounds had concluded, leaving the final game still ongoing.
At the conclusion of this game, the situation was that Black was moving his rook along the h-file towards h1 to land a checkmate (Rh1#) when his flag suddenly dropped before he placed the rook on h1 (Black's flag fell before he dropped the rook on h1).
The arbiter (with qualification of IA) did not notice the situation as he was not observing the game. but I and the two players conveyed the situation to the arbiter. The arbiter ruled the game as a win for Black on the basis that the occurrence of the mate-in-progress took precedence over the time.
There may be some other arbiter guidelines that I haven't seen but I don't think there is one that contravenes the base rules. That said, if the arbiter didn't see the flag fall before the move was made and all he saw was the mate, that could likely be the primary reason the win was awarded. Especially since only an arbiter or the players on a game can call a flag fall.
I have never heard that a piece in motion could be ruled as a completed or determined move. The rules actually state, for FIDE, that if an arbiter sees a flag fall they have to call it. There is nothing in the rules that indicate what you suggest and 6.9 specifically enumerates the situations that take precedence over flag fall.
I'm not going to say that a previous version of the rule was not in effect in the game but a mate in progress only counts, under FIDE rules, if the position gets reached; i.e. the move is determined on the board.
Aug 20, 2017
0
#50
jonesmikechess wrote:
... If the TD calls the flag, that is an illegal action, and white should be awarded two extra minute. (and the TD should be removed for breaking the rules.) However if anyone but black announces that the flag has fallen, the TD has to decide if black would have noticed that on their own to decide if that move is allowed.
That is not totally right. Under FIDE, if an arbiter sees a flag fall they must call it. Under USCF, you are correct.
Finally, other players should never call a flag. Interferring in a game can cause problems, including penalties to the player benefiting from the assistance, at least under USCF regulations.
Very simple.
White flags.
Black will win the game unless it can be shown that black cannot mate white by any series of legal moves
Any arbiter looking at the board can clearly see that it is impossible for black to mate white by legal means.
Result is clearly a draw.
Rasta_Jay wrote:
Black has no way of winning the game, help-mate is not possible and all moves lead to forced mate for white.. According to FIDE rules, it's a draw.>>>
Incorrect .... that only should apply if the clock is stopped and a draw claimed before the clock falls.
Optimissed wrote:
Rasta_Jay wrote:
Black has no way of winning the game, help-mate is not possible and all moves lead to forced mate for white.. According to FIDE rules, it's a draw.>>>
Incorrect .... that only should apply if the clock is stopped and a draw claimed before the clock falls.
Rasta_Jay is indeed correct.
FIDE rule 6.9
Except where one of Articles 5.1.1, 5.1.2, 5.2.1, 5.2.2, 5.2.3 applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by thatplayer. However, the game is drawn if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves
Aug 21, 2017
0
#54
Optimissed wrote:
Rasta_Jay wrote:
Black has no way of winning the game, help-mate is not possible and all moves lead to forced mate for white.. According to FIDE rules, it's a draw.>>>
Incorrect .... that only should apply if the clock is stopped and a draw claimed before the clock falls.
Under Guideline III.5, that would be the procedure but a player wouldn't need to use in this case since the outcome was going to be a draw anyway. The rules in the guideline are also only available in Quickplay finishes or games without increment and only if announced in advance; i.e. that rule is not normally in effect.
Martin_Stahl wrote:
eric0022 wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:
I understand the rules and role of the clock.
In your final hypothetical, what matters is the position on the board at the time of flag fall; i.e. the move has to have been completed, not in progress. If checkmate/stalemate is not on the board and the flag fall is claimed (or in the case of FIDE rules and the arbiter sees the flag fall) then white can't get the win. The only other question that has to be answered is if black can checkmate by any legal series of moves. If there is a legal series of moves that leads to black getting checkmate, then black wins. If there isn't, then it is a draw.
@Martin_Stahl @jonesmikechess
Several months ago in my local chess club, I was a spectator in an 8-player round robin tournament in the club. The first 3 games in one of the rounds had concluded, leaving the final game still ongoing.
At the conclusion of this game, the situation was that Black was moving his rook along the h-file towards h1 to land a checkmate (Rh1#) when his flag suddenly dropped before he placed the rook on h1 (Black's flag fell before he dropped the rook on h1).
The arbiter (with qualification of IA) did not notice the situation as he was not observing the game. but I and the two players conveyed the situation to the arbiter. The arbiter ruled the game as a win for Black on the basis that the occurrence of the mate-in-progress took precedence over the time.
There may be some other arbiter guidelines that I haven't seen but I don't think there is one that contravenes the base rules. That said, if the arbiter didn't see the flag fall before the move was made and all he saw was the mate, that could likely be the primary reason the win was awarded. Especially since only an arbiter or the players on a game can call a flag fall.
I have never heard that a piece in motion could be ruled as a completed or determined move. The rules actually state, for FIDE, that if an arbiter sees a flag fall they have to call it. There is nothing in the rules that indicate what you suggest and 6.9 specifically enumerates the situations that take precedence over flag fall.
I'm not going to say that a previous version of the rule was not in effect in the game but a mate in progress only counts, under FIDE rules, if the position gets reached; i.e. the move is determined on the board.
I guess it depends on what the arbiters learned during their arbiter courses. It might be difficult to convince all arbiters and players from around the world to agree on this rule. I am certain that there will be disagreements over this rule all over the world, even if they are stated on the rulebook, since these situations do not appear in games on a regular basis. In that tournament, he was the only arbiter around and everyone in the club believed in the 'mate precedes time' ruling.
Martin_Stahl wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Rasta_Jay wrote:
Black has no way of winning the game, help-mate is not possible and all moves lead to forced mate for white.. According to FIDE rules, it's a draw.>>>
Incorrect .... that only should apply if the clock is stopped and a draw claimed before the clock falls.
Under Guideline III.5, that would be the procedure but a player wouldn't need to use in this case since the outcome was going to be a draw anyway. The rules in the guideline are also only available in Quickplay finishes or games without increment and only if announced in advance; i.e. that rule is not normally in effect.>>>>
Of course, I was forgetting. Last time I played a congress, ALL games were quickplay finishes, but now they have the Fischer clock don't they? I think the Fischer clock is a really bad idea, btw. It basically turns games into an endless blitz. In my opinion, it makes a mockery of the entire game, because people can deliberately block the position and play meaningless moves. The player who tries to play chess is more likely to lose. I played a couple of such games on this site and found this to be the case.
Aug 31, 2017
0
#57
NelsonMoore wrote:
I was told that the complete move is moving the piece and then pressing the clock.
If the flag falls before you have pressed the clock, you lose on time (or draw if the opponent cannot legally mate)
Pressing the clock does complete the move but the game immediately ends when checkmate, stalemate or a dead position is reached (checkmate not possible by any legal series of moves).
It is always best to hit the clock to remove any doubt though.
Martin_Stahl wrote:
NelsonMoore wrote:
I was told that the complete move is moving the piece and then pressing the clock.
If the flag falls before you have pressed the clock, you lose on time (or draw if the opponent cannot legally mate)
Pressing the clock does complete the move but the game immediately ends when checkmate, stalemate or a dead position is reached (checkmate not possible by any legal series of moves).
It is always best to hit the clock to remove any doubt though.
But not if the move played happens to be illegal, in which case, pressing the clock completes the 'error'.
Aug 31, 2017
0
#59
There is no series of moves, no matter how ridiculous, that allows Black to win. Therefore, the correct result should be a draw according to FIDE rules.
Aug 31, 2017
0
#60
ThrillerFan wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:
eric0022 wrote:
A simplified scenario is as follows. Black moved his rook towards c1, but before he let go of the rook at c1, his flag drops. Since it is not checkmate yet, White wins on time, even though it is so obvious that it will lead to mate. The arbiter awarded White the win in that tournament.
That is a completely different scenario. In the OP's case, all moves are forced (with the first move being either knight). In your instance, white has a way to win in the position (a win by any series of legal moves), so when black's flag falls white gets the win.
Re-read the original post. White is to move, and HIS flag falls. White ran out of time, not Black, and while White's play must be idiotic for Black to mate White, there is a LEGAL sequence of moves in which Black can mate White, no matter how stupid they may be (see my previous post), and so Black wins in the OP's scenario.
Please show us a way for White to lose.
Edit: Sorry, I didn't realise I was coming to this discussion so late. MartinStahl has already pointed this out and you accepted that there is no legal way for Black to win.
Looks like I needed to re-read the rules about dead positions, I must have grouped dead positions something that didn't necessarily coincide.