Does True Randomness Actually Exist? ( ^&*#^%$&#% )
Sort:
Prometheus_Fuschs
Dec 14, 2019
0
#241
Yes, look up radiation decay. The rest of the OP is just ignorant.
Dec 15, 2019
0
#242
Optimissed wrote:
Elroch wrote:
I see, the good old self referential definition. There is a good reason why they are not found in dictionaries.
Fundamental ideas cannot be defined can they. Except in terms of themselves or in terms of their relationships to other fundamental ideas, but if you consider all fundamental ideas to be a holistic set then ultimately, the only things that dictionaries are good for is to depict meanings rather than define them so Lola is at top of the class.
In some sense that is true, but ideas are defined by their relationship to other ideas in an English dictionary. In mathematics very simple axioms are used as the starting point - probability theory is a branch of pure mathematics that is typically built on the same foundations of logic and set theory as other branches.
Intuitively, I don't see any difficulty in the idea of some quantifiable entity (a future observation say) about which one does not have complete information (complete information is when you know the quantity). And that is what randomness is.
Of course, given this starting point, you want a way to quantify it. This leads to probability theory and its applications in information theory, communication theory and physics (all of which deal with incomplete information).
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
Yes, look up radiation decay. The rest of the OP is just ignorant.
you are welcome to expend your thoughts about why radiation decay is a truly random process. preferably with your own words. however, if you chose to do so, i want to take this opportunity and encourage you to do so politely. Gracias!
Dec 15, 2019
0
#244
I would say this comes down to all the understanding of quantum mechanics, and the absolute randomness this implies. Even ignoring the fact that obtaining any information about the state of a nucleus has a big effect on its state, the maximum amount of information you can obtain only provides limited predictive capability, and this partial predictive information declines towards zero at an extremely high rate after such an observation.
In the usual case where you have a nucleus about which you only have basic information about its state (number of protons and neutrons and say the fact that it is in its ground state), the fact that there is no information you could possess about the nucleus that would provide complete predictability of its decay certainly means that without this information the decay is uncertain.
The actual practical uncertainty is such that a poisson distribution (the canonical probability distribution for a one-off event that has an equal probability of happening in any time interval of a given time.
The correctness of this probability model (by comparison with one where the rate would vary in some way over time) is proven empirically by large numbers of observations.
Elroch wrote:
I would say this comes down to all the understanding of quantum mechanics, and the absolute randomness this implies. Even ignoring the fact that obtaining any information about the state of a nucleus has a big effect on its state, the maximum amount of information you can obtain only provides limited predictive capability, and this partial predictive information declines towards zero at an extremely high rate after such an observation.
In the usual case where you have a nucleus about which you only have basic information about its state (number of protons and neutrons and say the fact that it is in its ground state), the fact that there is no information you could possess about the nucleus that would provide complete predictability of its decay certainly means that without this information the decay is uncertain.
The actual practical uncertainty is such that a poisson distribution (the canonical probability distribution for a one-off event that has an equal probability of happening in any time interval of a given time.
The correctness of this probability model (by comparison with one where the rate would vary in some way over time) is proven empirically by large numbers of observations.
I think that is important for you to be clear that absolute randomness is just your subjective belief and not some sort of a scientific true. without being clear about it this post may be very misleading.
the truth is that quantum physics does not imply absolute randomness. it is just an interpretation made by people to try and explain what we dont understand and its no more then a story telling. the true is that we just don't know.
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
Yes, look up radiation decay. The rest of the OP is just ignorant.
you sound confused. we are talking about true randomness, not pseudo cause and effect thingy.
Optimissed- PS it's the beer speaking but I'm enjoying it.
lol. which one was it i want to give it a try. having fun birdie?
i wanna know s/t...is determinism proportional to randomness ? or is this an illusion ? is one a function of the other ? leading me to....does free will coexist w/ determinism ?
iows, if FW and/or D is a function of R, then is R a yes or no question ? an all or nothing state ? (state a confuzion - lol !)
I'll try to answer this very simplistically and loosely for it to be helpful and easy to understand. once you get the foundation of it we can expand.
Determinism is the idea that since the beginning and all the way to the future everything happens precisely as a result of cause and effect and it is unchangeable.
for example, when you wake up in the morning and decide what to wear, its not really an independent decision of yours, it just seem this way in your mind.
in other words, theoretically someone with the ability to trace what every particle in the universe is doing could predict your choices millions of years ago.
freewill is the idea that our choices are real and independent. so taken the same example... when you wake up and chose what to wear, it is truly an independent choice made by you and your decisions actually do change the future. therefor if this is true, determinism is out the window because you serve as a 'gate' that actually make real choices and change the future.
the idea of true random (unlike pseudo) is very much like freewill in this sense, because it is basically an independent "choice" between different number of possibilities. therefor if true random is true, determinism is dead because just like freewill the random choices do change the future.
Gvgvgvjhvghvygjvkhghgvkkghghjkgjkbhjhbkbjhkjhkbbjhkbhjkhbjkbhjbhjkkjhbhjgg☝🏿👊🏿☝🏿👊🏿🤞🏿👋🏿👌🤙🤞🏿👊🏿✌🏾👈🏿☝🏿👈🏿✌🏾✋🤚🙏🏻🤙🦷👐🏼👍🙌🏽🤙🤙👌👊🏿👋🏿✋👊🏿🤠🤖🤮👿🤠👿🎃😻😽🙀🙌🏽👌👋🏿👎🤞🏿✊🏻☝🏿👋🏿👉🏾👈🏿👄☝🏿👈🏿☝🏿👈🏿🙏🏻✌🏾👈🏿🙏🏻👋🏿☝🏿👈🏿🙏🏻👇🏿👌✌🏾👇🏿👋🏿✌🏾🙏🏻👈🏿🙏🏻👌✌🏾🙏🏻🖖👌☝🏿☝🏿🖖✌🏾🖖✍️🤞🏿✍️✍️✍️🦷✋🦷🦶🏽🙏🏻🙏🏻🦶🏽🦶🏽🦷🦷🦶🏽🦷👂🏿👅👀🧠👀🦷🤙✋✋✋🤚🖐👥👥👁👥👶👥👥👥👩🏻👥👥👀👁👀👧🏻👧🏻👶👩🏻👩🏻👥👁👁👤👩🏻👩🏻👩🏻👨👨👨🏿🦰👱🏿♀️👩🏻🦰👨🏽🦱👦🧒🏼👩🏼🦱👵🏼👩🏼🦳👱🏻♂️🧔🏻👵🏼👨🦳🧓👩🦲👴🏻👲🏻👨🏿🦲💂♂️💂♀️👷🏿♂️👨🏿🎤
Uke8 wrote:
I'll try to answer this very simplistically and loosely for it to be helpful and easy to understand. once you get the foundation of it we can expand.
Determinism is the idea that since the beginning and all the way to the future everything happens precisely as a result of cause and effect and it is unchangeable.
for example, when you wake up in the morning and decide what to wear, its not really an independent decision of yours, it just seem this way in your mind.
in other words, theoretically someone with the ability to trace what every particle in the universe is doing could predict your choices millions of years ago.
freewill is the idea that our choices are real and independent. so taken the same example... when you wake up and chose what to wear, it is truly an independent choice made by you and your decisions actually do change the future. therefor if this is true, determinism is out the window because you serve as a 'gate' that actually make real choices and change the future.
the idea of true random (unlike pseudo) is very much like freewill in this sense, because it is basically an independent "choice" between different number of possibilities. therefor if true random is true, determinism is dead because just like freewill the random choices do change the future.
I think our friend Uke might be applying Occam’s razor here. : )
Dec 16, 2019
0
#253
Uke8 escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
Yes, look up radiation decay. The rest of the OP is just ignorant.
you are welcome to expend your thoughts about why radiation decay is a truly random process. preferably with your own words. however, if you chose to do so, i want to take this opportunity and encourage you to do so politely. Gracias!
"Radioactive decay is a stochastic (i.e. random) process at the level of single atoms. According to quantum theory, it is impossible to predict when a particular atom will decay"
You should do your homework and read about the topic at hand before stating that no randomness exist, you don't want to be a cuñado.
Dec 16, 2019
0
#254
Sillver1 escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
Yes, look up radiation decay. The rest of the OP is just ignorant.
you sound confused. we are talking about true randomness, not pseudo cause and effect thingy.
Then you don't know what randomness is.
u fools can believe whatchu want, but i use my own freewill allllllll daaaaaaay long. and every choice i make affects the future of the U (albeit in the most teensiest-weensiest of ways).
sad is the person who doesnt dream in blocks of lucidity. like me. there is nothing that bridges subconscious freewill w/ determinism like a sheep's cloud. they both exist in the Sub-C (for some). enuf proof 4me. feeling comfortable.
which leads me to ask....is freewill (as it relates to randomness) a personal thingy ?....subjective ?
****
I've asked myself to find the sunset in my eyes
so go....n'find the clouds of hazel green where blue resides
lucid drifts will surrender to the wisp of morning heather
as I slowly bring me back to my soothing nest a feathers....smiling !
****
nite everyone....its high 70's (as usual) and it feels sooo good 
.
KingAxelson wrote:
Uke8 wrote:
I'll try to answer this very simplistically and loosely for it to be helpful and easy to understand. once you get the foundation of it we can expand.
Determinism is the idea that since the beginning and all the way to the future everything happens precisely as a result of cause and effect and it is unchangeable.
for example, when you wake up in the morning and decide what to wear, its not really an independent decision of yours, it just seem this way in your mind.
in other words, theoretically someone with the ability to trace what every particle in the universe is doing could predict your choices millions of years ago.
freewill is the idea that our choices are real and independent. so taken the same example... when you wake up and chose what to wear, it is truly an independent choice made by you and your decisions actually do change the future. therefor if this is true, determinism is out the window because you serve as a 'gate' that actually make real choices and change the future.
the idea of true random (unlike pseudo) is very much like freewill in this sense, because it is basically an independent "choice" between different number of possibilities. therefor if true random is true, determinism is dead because just like freewill the random choices do change the future.
I think our friend Uke might be applying Occam’s razor here. : )
Occam's razor, honestly don't we sentient beings have any other device for trimming? Ah yes, the lousily underrated lawnmower.
Simplicity is a trimming, complexity is a growth. ; )
*Lucid dreaming only once.
Torn from me with sleepy punch.
Now I dream of songs anew.
Music that I never knew.*
’Zach a wry a we’ chorus.. : )
Random over long period is no longer random!
coaxCatToucan wrote:
Gvgvgvjhvghvygjvkhghgvkkghghjkgjkbhjhbkbjhkjhkbbjhkbhjkhbjkbhjbhjkkjhbhjgg☝🏿👊🏿☝🏿👊🏿🤞🏿👋🏿👌🤙🤞🏿👊🏿✌🏾👈🏿☝🏿👈🏿✌🏾✋🤚🙏🏻🤙🦷👐🏼👍🙌🏽🤙🤙👌👊🏿👋🏿✋👊🏿🤠🤖🤮👿🤠👿🎃😻😽🙀🙌🏽👌👋🏿👎🤞🏿✊🏻☝🏿👋🏿👉🏾👈🏿👄☝🏿👈🏿☝🏿👈🏿🙏🏻✌🏾👈🏿🙏🏻👋🏿☝🏿👈🏿🙏🏻👇🏿👌✌🏾👇🏿👋🏿✌🏾🙏🏻👈🏿🙏🏻👌✌🏾🙏🏻🖖👌☝🏿☝🏿🖖✌🏾🖖✍️🤞🏿✍️✍️✍️🦷✋🦷🦶🏽🙏🏻🙏🏻🦶🏽🦶🏽🦷🦷🦶🏽🦷👂🏿👅👀🧠👀🦷🤙✋✋✋🤚🖐👥👥👁👥👶👥👥👥👩🏻👥👥👀👁👀👧🏻👧🏻👶👩🏻👩🏻👥👁👁👤👩🏻👩🏻👩🏻👨👨👨🏿🦰👱🏿♀️👩🏻🦰👨🏽🦱👦🧒🏼👩🏼🦱👵🏼👩🏼🦳👱🏻♂️🧔🏻👵🏼👨🦳🧓👩🦲👴🏻👲🏻👨🏿🦲💂♂️💂♀️👷🏿♂️👨🏿🎤
Well said : )