Does True Randomness Actually Exist? ( ^&*#^%$&#% )

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Avatar of 2bz

Objectively, I understand everything

https://youtu.be/4xdp5L4yW14

Avatar of Elroch
Sillver1 wrote:

elroch:"I firmly conclude the first clause is false"

your conclusion is based on your own definition.. thats a silly fallacy. and if anyone took a close look at your definition, they will clearly see that you dont define TR, you exclude it, and replace it with randomness that is knowledge based.. silly.

Not me.

The dictionary, all the people who work in related areas and me.

Avatar of Elroch
Sillver1 wrote:

elroch:"I firmly conclude the first clause is false"

your conclusion is based on your own definition.. thats a silly fallacy. and if anyone took a close look at your definition, they will clearly see that you dont define TR, you exclude it, and replace it with randomness that is knowledge based.. silly.

If we were living in a different Universe to this one and that Universe had no randomness, then by definition it would be possible to accurately predict the moves in a game of chess before it had been played.

As I pointed out, this is irrelevant as it is nothing like our Universe.

This is a question that would be better addressed to a misguided determinist.

Also, amusingly, in the MWI, it is safe to say that for every game of chess you play, there are alternatives that correspond to every single legal game of chess (to be precise, an infinite number of branches for each of them). Empirically, some of them are much more likely than others (this can be statistically verified). The reason this is so is the quantum mechanical evolution, which has to be consistent with the probabilities given by any interpretation of quantum mechanics.

One might imagine this corresponding in some natural way to volumes in slices of the multiverse corresponding to all the paths. I have not seen the technical details.

[At root, the idea here is that the physics that governs the behaviour of the players in a chess game leads them to play reasonable moves but also has some uncertainty which corresponds to variation in the moves they will play. The amount of variation might be large or small - it is very difficult to tell because the system involved is so impossibly complex to deal with practically].

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

Those guys sitting across in their easy chairs have some really exiting terms to scribble down. The always reliable Sophomaniac comes to mind here. Problem is, all these mental health issues are easily recognized and labeled. Nothing haphazard about it, but as yet no known cure exists. 
It’s like Love- which there ain’t no cure for.

Avatar of Sillver1

"It’s like Love- which there ain’t no cure for." amen to that ; )

Avatar of Elroch

Why is it that so many people have this odd reaction to anyone who states things as they believe them to be true? Please keep your feelings of inferiority to yourself! Indeed, eradicate them, and think about the facts instead, in a non-ego-related way, as many of us do naturally.

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

non-ego-related way

LOL !! (consider the source !)

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

every single legal game of chess (to be precise, an infinite number of branches for each of them)

uhh, wrongoloid. u have "ervis precisely" (20) moves on move one for white. and black has a finite # of responses. and short draws are legal games.

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

The amount of variation might be large or small - it is the system involved is so impossibly complex to deal with practically].

Put in these terms, it all is beginning to make perfect sense. Practically speaking, I mean. Things are just so impossibly complex. Leave true thinking for those so equipped.

Avatar of KingAxelson

                      A

Stands for all possibilities, absolute, authority, affluence, and, abundance. The true nature of our ground state and that of the universe is that it is a field of all possibilities. In our most primordial form, we are a field of all possibilities. From this level it is possible to create anything. This filed is our own essential nature. It is our inner self. It is also called the absolute, and it is the ultimate authority. It is intrinsically affluent because it gives rise to the infinite diversity and abundance of the universe.

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

The question that has intrigued great thinkers: “are life and mind irrelevant to the structure of the universe, or are they central to it?” Are we living in a “participatory,” conscious universe, a cosmos in which all of us are embedded as co-creators? 
The question becomes mute for those who believe purely in the material, anything metaphysical nonexistent. But for those of us who recognize consciousness, the ultimate question is one of a shared experience or not? If  so- all this stuff floating about becomes a lot less random.

Avatar of Sillver1

"If we were living in a different Universe to this one and that Universe had no randomness, then by definition it would be possible to accurately predict the moves in a game of chess before it had been played."

the problem is that determinism is not about the ability to predict. that's where you confuse terms from your own field with those in philosophy. lets assume for a moment that our universe is deterministic. (as defined below). the results of the game are going to be fixed ahead, but you still incapable of making any predictions about the game because QM wont allow it. lets take one bite at a time.. do we agree on this? we should, because i only stated the facts.

Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.

Avatar of Elroch
Sillver1 wrote:

"If we were living in a different Universe to this one and that Universe had no randomness, then by definition it would be possible to accurately predict the moves in a game of chess before it had been played."

the problem is that determinism is not about the ability to predict.

It is about the ability to predict given sufficient information. "Predict" being a term meaning inference of some information from other information.

that's where you confuse terms from your own field with those in philosophy. lets assume for a moment that our universe is deterministic. (as defined below). the results of the game are going to be fixed ahead, but you still incapable of making any predictions about the game because QM wont allow it.

QM is incompatible with determinism, with only very mild and reasonable assumptions.

lets take one bite at a time.. do we agree on this? we should, because i only stated the facts.

Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.

Yes. So if you had that information about the past, the future state would be implied by it, by "natural law".

To be very thorough, there are two ways that this might not mean practical predictability. The first is that some of the necessary information about past state is absolutely inaccessible. This can be described as "hidden variables". The other (really pedantic?) is that the process of inference is impractically difficult. The latter is usually ignored and it is reasonable to do so. One reason is that the prediction does not have to be made in a timely manner: rather the past information can be collected, the inference done at leisure and then the result compared to the actual event (which may now have long passed). It is important to the scientific method that this is legitimate: what matters is the flow of information.

So, if we are happy to not worry about practical complexity of inference, we need only be concerned about hidden variables. The key result from physics is that such hidden variables cannot explain experimental results if they are causal. If they are not causal, all of scientific inference (including falsifiability and all statistical inference) is unreliable, so very few people are willing to consider that as a possibility.

 

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive
im·plied
/imˈplīd/
 
adjective
  1. suggested but not directly expressed;

     

    Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law. -sillver1

    Yes. So if you had that information about the past, the future state would be implied by it, by "natural law". -Elroch

     

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

Can’t accuse Elroch of being inconsistent 🧐

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

It’s a true art form, the rewriting. What was really meant is explained - and handily agreed upon !

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola
Sillver1 wrote:

my cyberdonut is bogota colombia.. almost there, im counting on your spells : )

so. how did u meet her ?...online ?

Avatar of Elroch
MustangMate wrote:
im·plied
/imˈplīd/
 
adjective
  1. suggested but not directly expressed;

The dictionary definition is too imprecise for this context, IMO. To clarify, I meant "implied" here in the sense of logic. Some information can be deduced from other information, without any uncertainty.

Avatar of Elroch
MustangMate wrote:

The question that has intrigued great thinkers: “are life and mind irrelevant to the structure of the universe, or are they central to it?” Are we living in a “participatory,” conscious universe, a cosmos in which all of us are embedded as co-creators? 
The question becomes mute for those who believe purely in the material, anything metaphysical nonexistent. But for those of us who recognize consciousness, the ultimate question is one of a shared experience or not? If  so- all this stuff floating about becomes a lot less random.

When pondering on this it's worth bearing in mind the four and a half billion years of the history of planet Earth before humans existed (mostly with only primitive life), and the further nine billion years or so when the Earth and its life did not exist.

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

Worth consideration. But does it diminish any less the time known?