Does True Randomness Actually Exist? ( ^&*#^%$&#% )

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MartySmith100
Elroch wrote:
MartySmith100 wrote:

There is no such thing as true randomness.  Every action has a cause and effect.  Everything that happens is caused by some previous event.   There is a reason dice land a certain way, there's a reason a coin lands a certain way, and even computer generated "random numbers" are not truly random.  

This fails with quantum mechanical systems.

Not really.  Quantum mechanics occur on a subatomic level, and the number of events described by quantum theory that fall into the category of so-called "randomness" occur so frequently that they average out.  So it has no effect.  

KingAxelson

"All of material creation is structured out of information and energy." 

I've often wondered how much of that statement is true.. Maybe randomness fell in love one time. : )

Always took you for a fish and chips guy silver,  just goes to show ya.

MustangMate

In the general theory of relativity, space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether.

KingAxelson

Alright so, I would think that the building blocks of atoms and molecules are something more than ether.? 

MustangMate

I'd think what makes up any aether is smaller than subatomic particles.  

power_9_the_people

Clever???

power_9_the_people

I was not prepared for that  tear.png

power_9_the_people

Well, you now very well that I know very well that you're not that stupid, after all

KingAxelson
Optimissed wrote:

Thought it was KA who was worried about it? It's just a typical type of scientific wisdom that tends to be put out by people who want to be noticed, but it's completely meaningless, so they're trying to look clever.

Worried? Lol, heck no. lol..

Oh, I needed that. lol.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

P2P !!....thx4coming over !!...a/w izzit just me or does a/o else feel that this so-called BB (if ever) wuz an interruption to an o/w peaceful thing ? cuz s/t's i feel i wooda been better off. owell....u only live twice.

power_9_the_people

Only twice, that's right. After that you have to recharge the battery. I mean as long as you're not living in the 46th century when things have got to get better and the batteries recharge themselves,  of course.

Sillver1
Elroch wrote:

It fails in that it is never possible for any amount of local information to make the results of experiments predictable. As the only solution is for the information to break causality, quantum mechanics is not deterministic (when causality is broken there is no real meaning to determinism, as information does not respect the order of time).

first, im happy that you finally talk about determinism and true randomness in terms of disturbing causality, instead of meaningless lack of knowledge for an observer. its a step in the right direction..
second, im disappointed that even after showing you the undeniable truth from an objective point of view, you still try to sell your beliefs as if they hold an objective truth.

Sillver1

as for the center of the U, fish & chips and such? maybe later. but for now its a tri tip sandwich with horseradish : )

Elroch
MartySmith100 wrote:
Elroch wrote:
MartySmith100 wrote:

There is no such thing as true randomness.  Every action has a cause and effect.  Everything that happens is caused by some previous event.   There is a reason dice land a certain way, there's a reason a coin lands a certain way, and even computer generated "random numbers" are not truly random.  

This fails with quantum mechanical systems.

Not really.  Quantum mechanics occur on a subatomic level, and the number of events described by quantum theory that fall into the category of so-called "randomness" occur so frequently that they average out.  So it has no effect.  

Randomness doesn't actually average out. If you toss a coin a huge number of times, the proportion of heads will converge to a proportion (ideally 1/2) but it will not be precise at any finite number of tosses.

And some systems amplify quantum uncertainty to large scale. For example the Schroedinger's cat thought experiment. Regardless whether you believe there is ever a superimposed dead and alive cat (there isn't for technical reasons - the conditions needed would require freezing the cat), what you can be sure of is that the death of a cat executed by a random quantum mechanical trigger is itself random.

There are many more important, natural examples of the amplification of quantum uncertainty. For example, pretty much any branch of evolution (there is direct evidence for the randomness in the path of evolution from the Lenstra experiment). The nature of humans is partly the result of random molecular events overy prehistory.

MustangMate

What is "over prehistory"?  If it's perceived that molecular events are random, then human nature is effected, but it's going to be effected in any case. 

MustangMate

I lean more towards madness. Easy to be gullible about such fantasy, ask Isaac Asimov, the greatest short strory writer on themes as the multi-verse. Entertain fantasy and perhaps allow a certain amount of gullibility, but to whole-heatedly believe that other worlds exist besides this one - is mad, sheer madness !

power_9_the_people

Not only there is no other universes but there is no other planet as well.  Obvious  nowadays. For example the lady (below) from another planet who was shipped from some other alien proto existing non-quantic and pseudo relativist time zone outside of  what we know nonetheless rightfully protesting for climate change --so to speak-- while  knowing very well what this movement toward ecological counsciousness is about. 

 

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Now I've read your feet .... a tall, dark stranger will come into your life ..... your instinctive side presides over your rational side, which is also quite strong but sometimes you ignore it ......

Opti, i have no desire to live my life w/ the wrong side a my brain. boring. i let my <3 lead the way cuz doing o/w would be cheating on it. besides, its only there to keep me alive and 4me2 give away....as i've never really owned it. and u can have my feet. they're peddied & saltwater soaked & hygiene clean. but u'll have to give me a piggyback ride places if u take'm....upon my demand happy.png .

the_chess_zebra

If you have ever raised guinea pigs and maintained a purebred collection of at last 50 individuals, and you have done this for 15 years, you would expect to know something about guinea pig behavior.  Male guinea pigs are called boars.  If you have 2 boars that hate each other, then you have to keep them in separate habitats.  Imagine one day that you have to put one boar in a play pen to clean his cage.  Then, you have to clean the other boar's cage.   So you put a divider in the play pen because you realize that you left the wood shavings in your car.  You hurry up because you know that boars will be facing off on each side of the divider. 

BUT when you come back into the house, both boars are laying next to the divider, touching their noses through the bars and acting like best friends.  So, you think... well, now they can live together.  So you remove the divider and they immediately take a fighting stance.

Now, 2 months later, one of the cages needs repair.  So, you put the boar into a permanent habitat in another room.  While you are cleaning the other boar's cage, you realize that the door won't latch.  It will take awhile to fix and you have no place to put the boar.  So, you put him in the habitat with his enemy and as you slide in the divider, the other boar dives under it.  Expecting the worst, you recoil in horror.  A guinea pig bite is deep and destructive.  But noooo!!!  The two boars behave like they have been best friends forever.  So, you shake your head as you walk away, tearing your hair out.

THAT, my friends, is the DEFINITION OF RANDOMNESS.

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:
MustangMate wrote:

I lean more towards madness. Easy to be gullible about such fantasy, ask Isaac Asimov, the greatest short strory writer on themes as the multi-verse. Entertain fantasy and perhaps allow a certain amount of gullibility, but to whole-heatedly believe that other worlds exist besides this one - is mad, sheer madness !

Yes it is, when it is understood that they think an infinite number of universes exist, just so that randomness apparently needn't occur. It is insanity because it defies the fundamental principles of science.

You think so? Which specific principles? Please be explicit: this is necessary in science, as you would surely acknowledge.

Consider one nice piece of evidence for the validity of the MWH - the Feynman interpretation of quantum mechanics. In this, you find that if you take (literally) every possible path that a particle could take, given the observations, and add together the complex numbers that are determined solely by the length of the path, then you get predictions which are consistent with that of all the other interpretations of quantum mechanics. Indeed it is reasonable to consider the Schroedinger wave equation as a way of representing the time-dependent evolution of this sum of all possible paths.