Does True Randomness Actually Exist? ( ^&*#^%$&#% )

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Elroch

ok, I know for a fact that quite a few of the people in this discussion have some understanding of quantum mechanics. Specifically that they know the Heisenberg uncertainty relation, which says that for a quantum object there is a relationship between the uncertainty in the position and the uncertainty in the momentum (and thus the velocity if the object has mass).

Specifically:

[uncertainty in position] * [uncertainty in velocity] >= some constant.

Basically if you reduce the uncertainty in one, you increase the uncertainty in the other and vice versa.

When you start with some information and try to predict where something will be in the future, the uncertainty comes in two parts. The first part is the uncertainty in the position you started with, and the second is the product of the time by the uncertainty in the velocity.

It turns out that whatever combination you start with, there is a minimum uncertainty for any length of time. For short times it is best to make the original position very accurate and not worry so much about the velocity (because it doesn't have time to matter much), and vice versa for long times.

If you take different options for what you might know about position and velocity to start with, the way the uncertainty in position changes over time for each looks like this:

The minimum uncertainty at any time is on the lowest line at that point.

And that is why Heisenberg's uncertainty relation means predictions get increasingly inaccurate over time.

And now I am off for a slightly delayed run.

Elroch
Sillver1 wrote:

it make a lot of sense, but lets cut right to the chase. you keep changing your story in effort to fit the data into your belief system or whatever, and its tiring to follow.
for example.. i have no idea where you stand on interpretations anymore. first you were a fan, happily claimed that TR and MW coexist. but then you learned that it was absurd to do so. now you seem to pretend it never happened and you reject all other interpretations? just like opti predicted. lol

I have always accepted that all interpretations of quantum mechanics have precisely equal scientific status and made no statement to the contrary. I like the MWI and the Hilbert Space interpretations, but I recognise that "liking" and "scientific status" are entirely separate.
but this doesn't work either. because it equal to saying that your interpretation is superior and absolute and all others are obsolete? and claim to be objective? how does that work?
you see.. opti and lola have the luxury to reject whatever they want because they dont pretend to be objective. but if you claim both objectivity and cherry picking at the same time.. kindof having the cake and eating it too, isnt it?

"Scientific status" is objective. "Liking" is subjective. One person can both recognise the scientific status of all valid interpretations and (independently) like them to different extents. Hope that clears it up.

as for valerio.. i only glanced at one of his articles. but it doesn't change anything. you make him sound like your guru or something. its understood to everyone that his conclusions are his subjective interpretation and philosophy, not some sort of the absolute truth you believe it to be. laters.

Fair comment, but all the science would be generally agreed by the physics community, and his reasoning is surely very reliable.

wait.. nobody is after you. its all just cause and effect of your behavior.

I understand: some people feel like taking potshots when someone else presents information with an air of authority.

Your post was worthwhile because you (partly) addressed points of fact in a way that allowed a constructive response. I would hope and expect my response makes sense to you.

Not sure if this is the article you referred to, but it might be interesting reading to some here:

RANDOM FOR WHOM? - Valerio Scarani

Sillver1

"but this doesn't work either. because it equal to saying that your interpretation is superior and absolute and all others are obsolete? and claim to be objective? how does that work?
you see.. opti and lola have the luxury to reject whatever they want because they dont pretend to be objective. but if you claim both objectivity and cherry picking at the same time.. kindof having the cake and eating it too, isnt it?

"Scientific status" is objective. "Liking" is subjective. One person can both recognise the scientific status of all valid interpretations and (independently) like them to different extents. Hope that clears it up."


no. its not clear at all. this can be an elementary statement to avoid the question, or it could be translated that you're 'liking' TR, but agree that its a disputed phenomena and not the absolute truth that you claimed it to be.

Elroch

All interpretations that produce the same predictions have the same scientific validity. That's the absolute truth. They all have "machinery" that can't be tested, but scientists agree that what can't be tested can't be objectively disputed, so it lies in the realm of subjective choice.

I have pointed out more than once that Bell's experiments combined with causality imply the existence of "true randomness" as I defined it i.e. ALL interpretations of quantum mechanics imply the existence of true randomness as I defined it.

(Note statements are about concepts, not about phrases, so if anyone else wants to make a statement about "true randomness" they need to specify what they mean by it. This is necessary because the phrase does not have a standard meaning that is already agreed).

Elroch

Yeah, you're making terrific contributions on randomness. Not at all a series of vapid attacks...

You should find a slow read of the article I linked helpful (genuinely).

RANDOM FOR WHOM? - Valerio Scarani

(To be 100% serious, I have always tried to make things clearer, but sometimes I have felt there was a risk I had failed. My new post #1867 with a simple simulation explaining why Heisenberg's principle implies randomness was one where I feared this, but questions are very welcome if that is so. The prerequisites are only very elementary quantum mechanics).

Sillver1
Elroch wrote:

All interpretations that produce the same predictions have the same scientific validity. That's the absolute truth. They all have "machinery" that can't be tested, but scientists agree that what can't be tested can't be objectively disputed, so it lies in the realm of subjective choice.

I have pointed out more than once that Bell's experiments combined with causality imply the existence of "true randomness" as I defined it i.e. ALL interpretations of quantum mechanics imply the existence of true randomness as I defined it.

(Note statements are about concepts, not about phrases, so if anyone else wants to make a statement about "true randomness" they need to specify what they mean by it. This is necessary because the phrase does not have a standard meaning that is already agreed).

excellent. there are some problems associated with this too, but i wont bother with it now. in fact.. this calls for a round on me everyone ; )

Elroch

You seem to have difficulty understanding honest comments made with positive intentions. It might be useful to work out why that is.

Elroch
Optimissed wrote:

You do realise that your hostility arose because you wouldn't define randomness for Silver, you asked another person to, I did so, you promptly altered your definition to something else and I pointed it out, you ignored that entirely and I pointed out that you're playing ego games. Which you are. Now it's your bedtime. I've had quite enough of you for one week.

With all due respect, that is inaccurate. Just to be sure of the details, I have checked. (You can too).

#1785 Sillver1 prompted me for a definition of TR and claimed I hadn't given one (I presume an honest error).
#1786 I pointed out that I had (too much earlier for me to find). and stated I would provide it again if he could not get it from anyone else
#1794 Sillver1 asked me to provide it
#1800 I did so. I provided the same definition in different words.

In brief, the definition in both cases was:

A truly random event is one that remains unpredictable even given all of the information accessible to points in space-time not in the future of the event.

(This is the most demanding condition I could come up with and is what I described twice. I was much more verbose in both cases, trying to make the meaning clear. I don't know how successful I was).

I wish I had been able to word it so concisely originally. A search reveals it was Blaise Pascal who said:

“I have only made this letter longer because I have not had the time to make it shorter."

Cool quote!

Phylo-Beddo

but the past, present and future are interwoven.

i thought science had caught up with this by now.

how disappointing.

Elroch

Can you change today what you had for breakfast yesterday?

If you accept you can't, you know something about causality.

Phylo-Beddo

ok if you are happy with schoolboy sarcastic science, good for you.

you are unlikely to know what i was talking about then.

and it is something verifiable experientially besides being verified by quantum mechanics, all a bit beyond schoolboy and the pseudo sciences sadly.

no surprise there.

Phylo-Beddo

he is afraid to be wrong and learn something new.

there is no room in his skull for humility.

Phylo-Beddo

it’s full.

Phylo-Beddo

probably a bad childhood experience, somewhere in the future.

Elroch

Ambiguity is something that can be resolved. While it may have already been resolved in the earlier much longer posts, do specify exactly which term is unclear to you, so that we can fix that.

I have to be clear though: it is definitely not self-referential. This is simple to check: there is only the one mention of the novel concept "truly random", and none of the other terms (all of which are standard and older) are defined by others in terms of this non-standard one). That should put that to bed.

If you want to learn something about the subject of this forum, read Scarani's article (which I actually only found for the first time yesterday as a result of @Sillver1) and you may see how it relates to my posts. It is aimed at physicists, but it should be accessible to anyone who knows about such things as Bell's inequality. If not, there are still parts of it and conclusions which should be relevant.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

i cant believe its today

Phylo-Beddo

what were adams first words ?

“ah! Eve, i believe”.

MustangMate

Heisenbergs uncertainty principle has nothing to say about true randomness. Not being able to measure velocity and position is a function of Time. Time is not singular points but rather as a blanket, making any such observation impossible. Such uncertainty does not suggest  randomness exists. 

MustangMate

Much to the dismay of Elroch, science can not provide answer. Now, if he wants to say “based on the observations and measurements he concludes “ ... all well and good. People make conclusions, evaluations. Unfortunately for him, having all the answers is not such a good thing ! Making claim ”Science” can provide us with the single correct evaluation sounds like a Guru from days old. 

Phylo-Beddo

at least the ones at Woodstock could be trusted.