If the universe requires a creator then the creator should require a creator = religion is made-up

Again, you cannot know that. There may be a supernatural power. We simply do not know. No one does.  You can claim that you do, but you are wrong, since there is no way to know for certain!

In other words, it may be proven tomorrow that you are a brain in a vat and a supernatural power is just making you THINK you exist in a normal world.

Couldn't we counter that and say that everything was designed by nature?

Religious people love to claim that everything was intelligently designed by a supernatural power.  I think everything was designed by a natural power.

There are many stories from old times, where one just have to go "shrug".

For instance, in Paris in the middel ages once hundreds of people said they saw dragons flying over the city. We dont go "omg dragons must exist since so many people saw them". But on the other hand, it is difficult to explain why so many people could think they saw dragons.

You can just go shrug.

(The example is from a french scholarly book called La Peur au moyen age, dont remember the author's name.)

No, because as i just explain, and which explanation surely must be repated over and over and over to the somewhat slow minds of anti-evolutionists, that organisms, if you can be bothered to actually look at them, which science can and creationists can not, do not look AT ALL like "designed things".

Darwin studied Theology at university with the not very enthusiastic intention of becoming a priest, mainly because he didn't have too many ideas as to what else he wanted to do. It's fortunate he got turned on to being a naturalist although, like many parsons of the time, who often had few serious religious demands put upon them, I suspect he would have studied nature quite a lot anyway! He was certainly never an atheist, although he was uncomfortably aware that evolution through natural selection was a serious challenge to the Argument from Design, which is one of the reasons he took so long to publish. This challenge was, in a way, an un-looked for by-product of his project to explain the diversity of living organisms but, as with all good scientists, he endeavoured to go where the evidence took him and leave his preconceptions on the side. There is evidence in his writings that he  became at least agnostic on the issue of God's existence and this caused him considerable pain, not least because his wife, whom he loved, was very devout.

Of course The Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope are highly educated guys as are many scientists who profess a belief in God. It is also true that the Catholic and Protestant Churches were and are all for the use of logic and reason due to the Aristotelian influence, but I can't help but notice that this use of reason seems to stop short of questioning the existence of God and also certain basic tenets on which Christianity is based. This is made very explicit in the Catholic Church's concept of "Dogma". Whilst Bishops, Popes and scientists may be very reasoned and logical when it comes to many issues, the arguments behind their foundational religious beliefs always seem to me to be very weak and I am always surprised that otherwise highly intelligent and educated men do manage to talk themselves into believing the dogma.   

You think Im anti-evolutionist?  LMAO!

My question wasn't whether they LOOK designed or not.  My question was can we counter their intelligent design(which they mean supernaturally created) by saying things were naturally designed(which is actually true).

Sand dunes were created naturally...........wind moving across sand.

Canyons were created naturally..........water moving over dirt for centuries.

Humans were created naturally...........sperm meets egg.

Either things were created naturally or supernaturally............or is there another way that someone can point out?

Again, you simply cannot know! You could be a brain in a vat to where everything you think you know............you simply don't. It could all be an illusion.

So you can claim to know, but you just can't!

heh OK.

i guess stuff can be created artificially also? The beforementioned cars.

they could claim sand dunes were artificial and created by aliens.

it wouldnt be a worse theory than the supernatural design theory lol.

We can disagree agree to on the vaccine issue - no drama. 

What alex is doing is blending religion and religious irrationalism until they become one and the same, which is unfair. It's like pinning only ISIS to Islam... 

Agree, religions isnt necessarily irrationalism and anti-science.

Its a bid sad for us non-religious people to see that "rational religion" doesnt seem to want to fight "irrational religion", sorta like they are leaving science minded atheists to deal with religion's mess where "rational religion" ought  to be part of the cleanup team.

The Pope was mentioned before as someone educated and rational, and it would help i guess if he started saying more energetically that evolution is all fine and well with christianity etc.

The result of the non-engagement of rational religion in these issues, is that a lot of people dont know they exist, since they just keep silent, and then people simply see all religion as irrational.

Which i dont think is in religion's best interest.

Yup. I agree, if religious people are willing to accept science - they don't have to believe in it per se, just accept it- , we will do the same. Sound fair?

I will conspicuously keep my mouth shut...

That analogy doesn't hold because we can deduce from our understanding of science that space is hostile for life, special suits need to be made for astronauts to survive up there.  If the lack of oxygen doesn't kill you the extreme cold and radiation will.  So we can dismiss out of hand the elephants (who evolved on Earth, so we know they aren't elsewhere) for the same reason we can dismiss alien visitation: odds, probabilities, and science (especially relativity with its light speed limitation) and logistics (astronomical amounts of fuel needed to push a big spaceship to even 1/10th c) tell us it isn't happening. The available planets for life to evolve is unknown, but due to the very strict criteria we can deduce that there are fewer than 10 in the Milky Way, with us very likely being the most, if only intelligent species. 

God however has lots of evidence, both logical and historical.  People have a tendency to feel guilt when they know they've done wrong.  Why do people feel that way?  Who programed that in? 

(A-Rod #1304)....I have extreme contempt for agnostics.

Why ?....what have they done to you ?

It's 'cuz A-Rod has deep contempt for the believer. There's something within himself he needs to resolve. Anger, jealousy, scared of god....something. It's obvious.

(A-Rod #1330) You are not my boss. I do not work for you. So stop pretending you can censor people.

Sounds like you have an authoritative issue w/ god. Maybe you've finally come to realize that life is a lose-lose trap for the atheist. And whether you believe in a god or not ?....you are a slave.

May I suggest some of Pascal's Wager ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

Hope this helps hon....

(S2 #1367) The universe can be explianed with out G-D.

No it can't....and you know it. The Universe cannot be explained by science....and it won't in our lifetime's either.

You need to stop furthering this lie to yourself. It's not good 4you.

The universe cannot be explained at all, particularly this question , childish, esay, basic :

Q1       "WHY the universe exists ?"

Just find one reason, it is like hen ad egg,

Q2                who came first ?

Here we have some next MedalFields and NobelPrize in this thread. No one answered, not even me, Q1 and Q2.

(ARod #1380) It makes the daily suicide bombings possible.

This is extremism. It has no place in spirituality. Kinda like you....you seem to be a good example of extreme atheism.

The god hypothesis doesn't explain universe and only replace a mysterious yet concrete phenomenon (a.k.a the existence of the universe) by a mysterious but magical and speculative one (some god).