Locking threads is a 1st ammendment issue!

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Avatar of RoobieRoo

you can't discriminate against free speech, or anything else that isn't a human being or set of human beings.

 

Did not the government act against the Westboro baptist church for demonstrating at the funerals of those killed in action by limiting the distance that they had to maintain.  It is generally understood that free speech is uttered by humans making your point that one cannot discriminate against free speech or anything that is not human a rather weak semantic argument.

Avatar of RoobieRoo
1818-1828271 wrote:
I mean legally, you are opening up a can of worms with inappropriate content if the 1st amendment could be applied here.

Pornography falls under art as a legal definition.

The 1st amendment was written without the internet in the picture and the laws could change. But I don't know what a law would look like that could ensure free speech on the Internet. It would have to still allow for some moderation.

Obscenity has never been protected by the first amendment.  Pornography is not art.

Avatar of DiogenesDue

You shifted your argument from free speech (hello, thread title) to something else then tried to claim I was not entirely correct.  Except that I was, in fact, entirely correct.  So, if you want to weasel around in your arguments, fine...but you need to own it.  Your first attempt, free speech, is a failure.  Your second attempt, discrimination against "free speech", is also a failure, though I doubt you are done with this one yet...

Avatar of RoobieRoo
btickler wrote:

You shifted your argument from free speech (hello, thread title) to something else then tried to claim I was not entirely correct.  Except that I was, in fact, entirely correct.  So, if you want to weasel around in your arguments, fine...but you need to own it.  Your first attempt, free speech, is a failure.  Your second attempt, discrimination against "free speech", is also a failure, though I doubt you are done with this one yet...

Yes I have acknowledged that it failed, so what? your claim that private companies and organisations can discriminate in any way they see fit was and is inaccurate, I pointed out why it was inaccurate with reference.  Discrimination against free speech has not failed yet although it might and nothing you have proffered so far has demonstrated that.  Weak semantic arguments are not going to cut it, I am sorry.  Are you aware that argument is proffered simply for testing a premise? 

Avatar of OneThousandEightHundred18
Uh, yeah actually porn is protected by the 1st amendment by being defined as "art" legally. That's why it's legal for it to be on the Internet at all. Look it up.

If anything the only argument here is that the 1st amendment laws are outdated and not up to the task of Internet freedoms.
Avatar of RoobieRoo
1818-1828271 wrote:
Uh, yeah actually porn is protected by the 1st amendment by being defined as "art" legally. That's why it's legal for it to be on the Internet at all. Look it up.

If anything the only argument here is that the 1st amendment laws are outdated and not up to the task of Internet freedoms.

I am not disputing that its on the internet I am disputing that its art.  I repeat it again obscenity is not protected by the 1st amendment.

 

The Supreme Court has ruled that obscenity is not protected by the First Amendment, but the courts still need to determine whether material in question in each case is in fact obscene.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_obscenity_law

Avatar of OneThousandEightHundred18
Dude you're not getting it. I agree with you on a fundamental level but the legal status is a different story. This link mentions obscenity and its relationship to the legal status of porn, and why porn is legal and not banned.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/pornography
Avatar of OneThousandEightHundred18
And so you see, porn is protected under the 1st amendment. So if the 1st amendment could apply to chess.com we could be posting porn here with no repercussions.

So probably new laws that integrate the Internet as being an important medium of exchange of ideas are in order. It will take a while for the laws to catch up with culture and technology.
Avatar of DiogenesDue
robbie_1969 wrote:

you can't discriminate against free speech, or anything else that isn't a human being or set of human beings.

 

Did not the government act against the Westboro baptist church for demonstrating at the funerals of those killed in action by limiting the distance that they had to maintain.  It is generally understood that free speech is uttered by humans making your point that one cannot discriminate against free speech or anything that is not human a rather weak semantic argument.

We agree that there's a weak argument here, I guess.  Your Baptist anecdote really has no bearing whatsoever on any claim regarding chess.com.  The cordoned off area or whatever would have been in place in any similar circumstances regardless of where this event happened.

Avatar of RoobieRoo

Also on pornography v art and the legality of protected speech, this is of some interest.

 

The legal distinction between artistic nudity and permitted commercial pornography (which includes sexual penetration) deemed "protected forms of speech", versus "obscene acts", which are illegal acts and separate from those permitted areas, is usually predicated on cultural factors. However, no such specific objective distinction exists outside of legal decisions in federal court cases where a specific action is deemed to fit the classification of obscene and thus illegal. The difference between erotic art and (protected) commercial pornography, vs. that which is legally obscene (and thus not covered by 1st Amendment protection), appears to be subject to decisions within local US federal districts and contemporary moral standards.

 

So what do we have? a situation where the artistic works of the greatest European masters are juxtaposed beside some dude in a basement in California making pornography? and is at the whim of shifting sands of moral expediency?  Really? 

 

the so called Miller test. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test

 

1. does pornography appeal to prurient interest? yes, then its defined as obscene.

2. does it taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value , yes then its obscene

3. Whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions specifically defined by applicable state law,

 

yes, then its obscene and illegal!

Avatar of OneThousandEightHundred18
If you read more carefully, you'll see that only certain types of porn are considered not protected.

We could be posting "soft core" with no repercussions. That means pictures of real people in the nude not depicted as doing anything sexual beyond simply being naked.

Do you think chess.com wants to allow soft core porn on here?
Avatar of RoobieRoo
1818-1828271 wrote:
Dude you're not getting it. I agree with you on a fundamental level but the legal status is a different story. This link mentions obscenity and its relationship to the legal status of porn, and why porn is legal and not banned.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/pornography

Actually it may be you that does not seem to get it, have you considered the possibility? Pornography may be protected speech, obscenity is not.  Has not Utah made pornography illegal and handed out fines and sentences for those caught possessing it but even viewing it?  this could hardly be the case if its truly protected speech.

Avatar of Mungus14
This whole thread is bogus.
Avatar of OneThousandEightHundred18
All I'm saying is that if you want to argue against the censorship on here (which I applaud you for) you'll need some better arguments.
Avatar of DiogenesDue

Hey Sherlock, your own Wikipedia link clearly states that the Miller test requires that all 3 need to be true to be considered obscene...so your additions of "yes, then it's defined as obscene" on the first two points are completely false.  Your implication is that each of the 3 defines obscenity, but that only with all 3 does it meet the test of being obscene at a level that is "illegal".  That's BS.

Maybe it's just the software developer in me, but the imprecision of your arguments is startling.

Avatar of Diakonia
robbie_1969 wrote:

 

Amendment I. Chess dot com shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition chess dot com for a redress of grievances.

The U.S. Constitution’s protection of freedom of expression embodies the notion that an individual’s ability to express himself freely — without fear of mod punishment — produces the autonomy and liberty that promote better Internet experience. Allowing members to openly discuss topics of public concern results in a more transparent and representative website, more tolerant ideas and a more stable society.

It now becomes rather self evident that the ruthless policy of enforcing the no religious/no political discussion is unconstitutional on many levels.  Not only are we subject to arbitrary lock-down with no recourse to due process (an impartial hearing before our peers) but it tramples on the right of free expression resulting in a more intolerant and unstable experience.

 

 

What does the Constitution have to do wih an internet website?

Avatar of RoobieRoo
1818-1828271 wrote:
If you read more carefully, you'll see that only certain types of porn are considered not protected.

We could be posting "soft core" with no repercussions. That means pictures of real people in the nude not depicted as doing anything sexual beyond simply being naked.

Do you think chess.com wants to allow soft core porn on here?

I have acknowledged that nudity in itself does not construe a charge of obscenity, made earlier in the thread.  However whether an image passes the Miller test remains to be seen. There is huge difference between Titians Venus of Urbino and even some so called soft porn where a model may even be bikini clad but the emphasis is clearly overtly sexual.

As for chess dot com they have a vested interest in preventing such because the site also appeals to children wanting to play chess.  The same cannot be said to prevent the discussion of politics and religion though, can it, for even in schools and colleges children may be encouraged to discuss some aspects of these subjects.

Avatar of RoobieRoo
btickler wrote:

Hey Sherlock, your own Wikipedia link clearly states that the Miller test requires that all 3 need to be true to be considered obscene...so your additions of "yes, then it's defined as obscene" on the first two points are completely false.  Your implication is that each of the 3 defines obscenity, but that only with all 3 does it meet the test of being obscene at a level that is "illegal".  That's BS.

My dear sir, please try to restrain yourself, we are simply engaged in testing the premise of some ideas, its not a personal thing, please lets not get personal.

Avatar of RoobieRoo
1818-1828271 wrote:
All I'm saying is that if you want to argue against the censorship on here (which I applaud you for) you'll need some better arguments.

better arguments? I'll need a miracle!

Actually the original OP was made tongue in cheek, why no one seemed to note that I had changed the first amendment I cannot say.  

Avatar of RoobieRoo
Diakonia wrote:

 

What does the Constitution have to do wih an internet website?

Its tongue in cheek dude, not the real 1st amendment, just sayin! although the first amendment, the real one guarantees protected speech I was intent on exploring what rights if any we have.  We don't have any apparently.