tomtrytostay

Pulp I very much respect you and I'm very interested in your opinion . I'm working my way through trysts post but I'll reply since you asked .

Our public schools arbitrarily define science as explaining the world by natural processes alone..... People all around the world are getting ready to change that with the holy teachings of the local religious belief systems, and local religious texts, like Bible etc. Wish them success, Tom. :D

The thing is, even if free will is an illusion, like I've also heard about the "time arrow" or something like that, the perception is not comparable with a religious belief, hombre.

Why is it foolish to believe free will exists .

1 there is no evidence . In fact the only evidence is experiential . It feels like we have free will . We can say look I'm raising my hand to demonstrate free will exists. Look a little deeper though . Why did you raise your hand to demonstrate that free will exists? Because you wanted to . You didn't choose to want that it just existed .

In fact you don't choose what you believe at all .

Actual scientific evidence supports the view that in fact free will does not exist . For example neurosurgeons discovering that stimulating certain parts of the brain produces certain behaviour .

Also the unconscious . We are continually behaving in particular ways automatically without any awareness at all . This indicates that actually we aren't as in control as it might seem . Okay number 1 no evidence .

How exactly is it different pulpofeira? Because it seems to be that way you mean ?

It's comparable I guess to the experiencing the world as being flat .

I'm not sure pulp that just because it seems like that to us that that makes holding free will to be factual any less of believing in a fairy tale.

How do you know these religious guys don't seem to experience God continually .

Certainly people that hold free will to be true defend it .

You're always giving the you aren't talking responsibility dressing down for asserting free will is false . Condemned as being immoral .

The civilised equivalent of being sent to hell .

I'd better post later though or I'll be sent to hell by my wife !

Oh okay Suman. I see your point . Well they can just have God as the answer to everything !

Don't call me by my complete name, you remind me of my wife when she's scolding me. Thinking the world is flat nowadays is foolish, but not to blame 5,000 years ago, for example. Your business is still a bit unripe I'd say.

Okay pulp I wasn't sure what was more polite to you .

So you're saying what's established and conventional isn't foolish .

I can accept that to a degree . After all we would all think that a person that believed in a sun and moon God was a little out of date .

I suppose though it just frustrates me that the likes of trysts comment on the religious guys holding beliefs without at least acknowledging that free will and in fact self is no more than belief too ..

After all there is no proof that either exist .

I wish I had time to reply further but sooner or later I'll be at a loose end

No problem! But anyway she has a point when saying your attitude looks a bit contradictory. 

I lived long enough to actually witness someone saying, "there is no evidence...the only evidence is experiential"!? Dear, I'm afraid that you missed the point that all "evidence" is judged in veracity to direct experience. Whatever we experience is true unless there is a demonstrable reason to believe otherwise. You are failing your own criteria for rejecting "faith" as evidence;)

 On your second point, that a neurosurgeon can direct limb movement by stimulating the brain is called an "involuntary response" to the stimuli. Free will is voluntary, it's chosen by ipsissimus. Are you saying an involuntary action dismisses the notion of free will?

 Your third point, I believe, addresses "intuition". Intuition is a very very interesting subject which at no point in anything I've ever read or experienced in life pretends to overthrow any claims of a free will. Chess is a good example of intuition. It seems to be a type of pattern recognition? But again, intuition doesn't dismiss free will. 

I actually really like your first point trysts about the burden of proof being to disprove experience .

You see trysts we have contradictory experiences perhaps .

I guess you'd say that your experience tells you that free will exists and I would say that mine tells me that free will does not exists .

How about I show you mine and you show me yours?

How about no?

So this is how it is for me .

I watch you know .

I see my thoughts and feelings and behaviours happening .

I used to recognise a choice whether or not to solve when I conceptualised a problem but now I know it's better to live in the moment and keep a clear mind . That if I worry I agitate my brain and get paranoid .

Sure some times I know there is a path A and a path B but what I find is I just want to venture down one or the other .

I find that want just exists trysts . Belief just exists .

Does anyone truly believe that we can choose whether or not to believe in God ? Really ?

Love is like that . God knows we love people at times we oughtn't right ?

Ha ha !

Pulp let me know what you mean buddy .

Anyway trysts my point and why I invited you here if you like was that I felt you were addressing other people's superstitious beliefs but not your own . I accept your point that for you free will is an experience .

Perhaps then you can recognise that for some of these guys at least that God is an experience for them .

Though God knows it's a false experience !

Okay well thank you for replying so beautifully trysts . I hadn't had time really to fully reply to you .

I tell you what my interest is finding out what we are but perhaps one day I'll be interested in proving or at least engaging in an argument re free will .

The truth is right now my fixation is what are we .

I have to wonder, once again, who you think is observing you, since you don't believe in a self? Has Chess.com become the website of split personalities? Should Psychology Today do an in depth investigation?

 I don't know what happened to you where you want so much to believe you had no choice? But I do know that Jake Gyllenhaal better do a comedy soon or I won't be able to watch his movies anymore