What if the Theory of Evolution is Right? (Part I)

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pawnwhacker

   People like you, PP, just don't get it. You, Lola, hapless, e99, etc. have a total misconception. His personal life is good, therefore he doesn't need god? You are so far off the mark that it is unbelievable.

MindWalk
ProfessorProfesesen wrote: MindWalk replies in red: There's surprisingly much to reply to here.
MindWalk wrote:

As to The_Ghostess_Lola: It is possible that I will change my mind at some later time, but for the moment, I am no longer going to reply to her. It is one thing for her genuinely not to understand how it is possible to be a nonbeliever in God or an afterlife and to be a rational thinker (as I hope I am) who claims that we ought not believe in them without good reason but nevertheless to fervently hope that there is an afterlife, as I do; it is another for her to insist that I am lying about it. For someone who claims emotional intelligence, such a level of disrespect is shocking. And there's no point in saying anything to someone who simply refuses to believe that you mean what you say and would rather conclude that you were an inveterate liar.

Even though I dislike Lola calling you a liar, I think I understand where she is coming from. 

I think in your personal life you have everything you need, more or less. Need? Yes. Want? No. However, I am not particularly driven by my wants: if I were, I'd more actively seek work and an apartment and a lady friend. As it is, I am fairly content to live with family and to work on my book and to play a little chess. One thing I think Buddhism gets right is the virtue of not letting your desires dominate you. (But my being satisfied with what I have is also partly attributable to my living my life very much in my mind. I realize that I am atypical in that.) So that you don't need god. I mean either way it wouldn't make any difference. I don't understand how that would matter. If I were homeless, freezing in the street in midwinter, it might help if there actually *were* a God, for then perhaps he would create a warm home for me; but how would *belief* in God help? I think some people take the view Karl Marx had: while people are suffering a lot, religious belief helps make the suffering more tolerable. Well, maybe there are people who really are psychologically built that way: religious belief helps make their suffering more tolerable. I don't seem to be like that. Suffering is suffering, whether there is a God or not--and anyway, belief-formation is not tied to how I feel.  More importantly I doubt if you want to SEEK god, or go through the discipline neccesary to come close to knowing what it is all about. (Zen meditation, prayers, ascetism etc) Why would I seek a God whom I strongly doubt exists? It would be like "going through the discipline" of mounting an expedition to Mars to seek the Martian purple unicorns. Why would I do that? Moreover, this "seeking of God" seems to consist largely of placing yourself in a psychologically receptive state for believing in God, which seems an awful lot like self-hypnosis. In fact, human beings have to be very careful *not* to be overly receptive to believing this or that, or they will find themselves believing all sorts of things that there is little reason to think are true. Think of conspiracy theories. Imagine someone who deliberately put himself into a very receptive state of mind for believing that the Moon landing was faked. He'd very soon find himself believing that it was faked--even though he shouldn't.

And I think this is what Lola was sensing, that in the end, you don't really care. Perhaps Lola mistook your intellectual curiosity as something more? 

If I am wrong, my apologies. But I'd like to know how you feel about god, rather than think.... It isn't altogether clear to me that there isn't a fundamental error lurking here. Perhaps you're simply curious about how I would feel about this or that version of God, were I to think he actually existed. It would displease me to think that the Old Testament God existed, since he's such a monster. It would displease me to think that the New Testament God existed, too, since (a) he's supposed to be the same God as in the Old Testament and (b) even in the New Testament, he's irrational and not maximally loving. But what kind of God do you have in mind? I don't really have a feeling about there being a God who was nothing more than a First Cause.

The fundamental error I referred to is that of thinking that belief in God is appropriately determined by how you feel rather than by what you think. We should all be skeptics. We should all say, "Oh, really? Give me good reason to believe that that's really true." You wouldn't believe in the Loch Ness monster without good reason. Why would you adopt the far more important belief in God without good reason? And when good reason is not forthcoming, we should withhold belief. Maybe we'll find good reason later. But until we have it, we should withhold belief. This is a basic principle of propositional belief (I have to say "propositional belief" because we hold lots of beliefs, like beliefs about morality, that really are appropriately determined by how we feel or what we value--they're just not beliefs about the way the world is, about what is objectively true or objectively false, like "Jupiter is the largest planet in the Solar system").

MindWalk

Doubt. And the more you want to believe something, the more you should remind yourself to doubt.

Elroch

This discussion has taken an interesting, if way off topic direction.

ProfessorProfesesen has accidentally revealed an important fact. He indicates that a key causal factor in religious belief is NEED. He indicates that those who don't have what they want in their lives believe in God, while those who do, do.

The question is why deprivation should make peoples untestable metaphysical beliefs more reliable.

_Number_6
MindWalk wrote:

 but how would *belief* in God help? I think some people take the view Karl Marx had: while people are suffering a lot, religious belief helps make the suffering more tolerable. Well, maybe there are people who really are psychologically built that way: religious belief helps make their suffering more tolerable. I don't seem to be like that. Suffering is suffering, whether there is a God or not--and anyway, belief-formation is not tied to how I feel. 

 

This, I think is the key to it all as I have said before.  Hitchens I believe refers to religion as a death cult.  Basically, it means that people are willing to accept suffering now in hopes of a better afterlife.  And we think the King's Gambit is dubious!?

Rough guesses are that 99% of human existence has been grubby, terrible and short for 99% of everyone except the richest 1%. And for them it may just have been short.  Is it any wonder we evolved a coping mechanism that promises eternal salvation and an answer to why are we here?  Scraping in the sand and herding a small flock of goats in this life is not going to seem like the garden of Eden.

I would expect the least religious countries are the once that have spent the longest time to date not suffering. i.e. North western Europe and most of urban upper middle class North America. 

Has anyone found God?  No.  What they have found is a way to cope with their meaningless and often miserable existence.  It's the same reason young children leave the hallway light on.  The fact that the light is on does not mean the monster under the bed is real.

zborg

This thread is essentially designed to bait religious folks into commenting, then heap abuse on them.

Regardless of your ethical views, this behavior is shameful.

Get a life, guys.  Surely this kind of internet experience does not fulfill ??

zborg
MindWalk wrote:

Has anyone else noticed that the logout time for writing posts has decreased markedly? Sometimes I finish writing a post and then find that I have been logged out, even if it's a relatively short post (for me, at least). That never used to happen.

Yes.  Dozens of times over the past week.  It's really quite maddening.

Perhaps the site wants Twitter-sized sentences, when you droll on in "red" ?  Smile

trysts
_Number_6 wrote:
 


Has anyone found God?  No.  What they have found is a way to cope with their meaningless and often miserable existence. 

With or without gods, existence can always be meaningful:)

Pulpofeira

Life justifies by itself.

zborg

Meaning can always be discerned.  Even in mindless threads, occasionally.

pawnwhacker

   sour grapes, as usual

zborg

Time for you to follow up with your 5th or 6th juvenile block, @PawnWhacker ?

That you pretend to be an adult is a measure of your shame.

Keep up the Charade...and have a nice day.

pawnwhacker

  What I can't quite understand is why you would keep coming back to a thread that you loathe.

pawnwhacker

   I would add that this thread, for whatever reason, seems to have a life of it's own.

Elroch

zborg

If bullshite could fly, this thread thread would rival Heathrow airport.

pawnwhacker

pawnwhacker

MindWalk
Elroch wrote:

This discussion has taken an interesting, if way off topic direction.

ProfessorProfesesen has accidentally revealed an important fact. He indicates that a key causal factor in religious belief is NEED. He indicates that those who don't have what they want in their lives believe in God, while those who do, do. Edit: "...while those who do, don't."

The question is why deprivation should make peoples untestable metaphysical beliefs more reliable.

Elroch

Thanks, MindWalk. A "not" was indeed omitted.

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