Express if you like or do not like the new version of the site

Sometimes there is NOT a pot of gold at the end of a RAINBOW , just sonorous snoozing , which is unusual when "comments" emanate from diurnal waking-time "Northern Hemisphericals". I would include the OTHER hemisphere but Morpheus seems to there reside.  Seasons Greetings to all that anticipate a fun '17year !!!   

@NimzoMalay -

1. Variants like Bughouse, Crazyhouse, 3 check, King of the hill, Live 960 introduced to live chess.(your original #2582 statement) – There is no reason these variants cannot / could not be introduced in to V2. (from my statement in #2593)

   What made you come to the conclusion that these variants can be introduced in V2's live server? Last time I checked, Chess.com wasn't open source, so I take your argument as a guess. (per your rebuttal in #2613)

   – Irrelevant. Check your premise, you will find it deficient. Being open/closed source is irrelevant as to whether it can be done or not. Knowing how to code is about all the information one needs to know whether it is possible or not. So, no, my argument is much more than a 'guess'; it is erudite and logical.

   The primary reason why they had to upgrade from V2 to V3 was to write new code from the ground up to support various new features that were impossible to implement in V2. (per your rebuttal in #2613)

– Again, irrelevant to the topic. Necessity to upgrade does not correlate with the choice of what functions or features to develop in existing or future versions of software. The excerpt you quoted, "The latest web technologies let us add features we could only dream of in the past", is as immaterial as most of your arguments here-to-fore. There is nothing to say they (the chess.com coders) could not have re-coded V2 with the same 'latest web technologies' (and also add in those same dreamy features) and kept the same user interface to which we are all accustomed .

2. Ability to import and analyze any game played outside of Chess.com (your original #2582 statement) – ChessBase, Scid, and other programs permit me to do that already. BTW, how often would/do users actually use such a function? Furthermore, the new V3 analysis is done quite differently than the V2 version. And, I prefer the V2 version. (from my statement in #2593)

   I use the game import feature a lot. I find it very convenient to open an analysis tab, paste the pgn and look at the analysis. If you're using client side interfaces to analyze the games, first you need to save the game in pgn format, then open the saved pgn using either ChessBase or Arena. That's too much work for me, with the analysis feature I can do all this in 1 step and I don't even have to save any games on my computer. (from #2613)

   Sadly, your logic fails. In your 2^nd sentence you write, “open an analysis tab, paste the pgn …”. Then in the 3^rd sentence, … the very next sentence …, “if you're using client {software} to analyze games, first you need to save the game in pgn format”. Ok, so 'pgn format' is irrelevant to your argument. In ChessBase, in the HOME menu, the FIRST button in the menu list is “PASTE GAME”. Guess what that does. I'll give you a hint, it has to do with copying a game from one's clipboard (i.e., not saved on disk). So… how inconvenient is that compared to V3? My PC→ Open “ChessBase” program. Click on Home. Click “Paste Game”. Begin analysis. (4 steps)

   V3 → Open browser. Open chess.com. Login. Now where do I go? Unless you know WHERE to go in the Icon/Menu labyrinth, its not intuitive. Learn. → Analysis. → Load FEN/PGN. Begin Analysis. (7 steps)

   In ChessBase, I can switch analysis engines and parameters with ease. V3 gives me two options: depth levels & number of lines investigated. Scid and most other PC-based software packages operate in similar manners to ChessBase with engine analysis parameter configuration.

   Getting back to the main topic, V2 has the same functionality. i.e., V3 is no greater than V2. Just an interface change. In fact, V2 has functionality properly labeled and better organized in tabs / fields than V3. Try it, you'll see what I mean. V2 is far more intuitive; the only part missing is the 'analysis engine' to analyze a position. Does that mean V3 is better than V2? Or that they could not have put this function in to V2? Not in the slightest. 2.5 years now, V3 has been under-development. Instead of putting this in to V3, they could have tied that function in to V2's existing Analysis engine.

3.  Ability to do a quick blunder check of your games in Live chess.(from #2582)– Huh? Please elaborate. (from#2593) After finishing a game, you can quickly analyze the game and look at your mistakes, blunders and inaccuracies. This is a big improvement over V2's primitive analysis feature. (from #2613)

This ties in to #2 above. a.) the same functionality could have been placed in V2, but the developers chose not to; b.) most of the time, I can tell myself where my blunders were. The engine, however may highlight alternative lines to show what we could have done better. That is the main point of the current analysis engine of V2. In fact, the V2 engine also highlights points where your opponent may have missed a mistake on your part---V2 does all that in a succinct, tallied response once its been compiled. (Even dear Martin partially concurs with me: “Format of the analysis could be more like v2, that would make it better.” (from #2607 – point 8).) Paying members get their reports in a few moments and at a higher level of analysis than non-paying members. Choosing to reduce the perks for paying members of V3, the staff have capitulated one of V2's advantages. How is that classified as progress?

4.  Club tournaments in Live chess. (from #2582) -- Again, something that could have been added on to V2.(from#2593) Again you're taking wild guesses. (from #2613)

Not wild at all. If V2's core were re-coded as V3's was, none of this is an issue. As even Martin conceded, “could have kept the same visual design. {Erik} didn't. The visual design is probably one of the easier things to change moving forward” (from Martin_Stahl, #2607). Most of this is about the visual design of V3. Erik chose a different User Interface design to be built atop V3 rather than keep the same interface with V2. GeneralChang and other coders more experienced than myself could also probably tell you–its not impossible.

Another point. This is something I had to learn the hard way with my own product development as well: how useful is/are these new features? Have you ever tried to coordinate even a local club (with everyone in the same time-zone and such) in to an internal-only live club tournament? Its hardly plausible unless the club is larger than 500 members with an active population of 10-15%. Live Club-vs-Club chess is something only a small percentage of groups can put together – and generally, it will only be At-Large teams versus other At-Large teams (not geographically-bound groups). So, in the end, only uber large groups like Chess Univ. and TPOC can really make use of such a feature.

Live Club Chess Tournaments – immaterial to the V3 v. V2 discussion.

5.  Notifications can now be easily read and discarded by clicking on the (x) next to them, this was a pain in V2.(from #2582)-- Personally, I find notification management in V2 to be far superior to that in V3. Clicking all those individual (X)s is laborious. V2 screens often included a "Check all" function in many screens. Message management is rather rudimentary in both versions.(from#2593) I like the way notifications appear in V3 in the form of a drop down menu. Thus is solely my opinion and is subjective. (from #2613)

Subjective. Martin also mentioned there was a 'clear all' function in V3. Therefore, I think this point is mute – not an improvement over V2, just a modification.

Unlimited access to your games, this was restricted to only premium members in V2. (from #2582) -- And, how do you think that makes paying premium members feel? (from #2593) I'm talking about why V3 is better than V2, giving unlimited access to all the games for every member is better than confining it only to paid members. This might make you upset but that's just you. (from #2613)

If you are talking about why V3 is better than V2, than licensing is a non-issue! All the owners had to do was permit any new member a diamond membership sans payment. More than anything, your lack of a logical argument makes me upset – I keep hoping for a stronger, more challenging argument from you about why V3 is better than V2. Vacancy

7.  Unlimited access to your statistics, this was again restricted to paid members in V2.(from #2582) -- ditto. Two reasons not to pay for premium; not sure how either of these arguments makes V3 better than V2. Erik could have just as easily made them free on V2 as well. (from #2593) Ditto (from #2613)

Twice, you are adding nothing to why V3 is better than V2.   Shooting blanks in to the vastness of space.  🌌🌌🌌

8.  Real time computer analysis (from #2582) -- I strongly prefer V2's engine. Its done offline (not on the user's PC or .. heh, phone). It gives variant lines that are easy to traverse. As a paying, premium member I get analysis done at the ~2500 rated level. I find it is more accurate than the V3-version of analysis .. and easier to digest.(from #2593)Again, this is subjective. You like V2's computer analysis whereas I like V3's computer analysis … there was no way for you to try out new lines while analyzing. (from #2613)

Another mute point. As I've mentioned several times over and probably now has the casual reader wishing for a SMOD (Sweet Meteor of Death) from above to put him/her out of reading in ad nasuem, I will attempt once more to shed light into an apparent Black Hole of Il-logic. The new analysis engine could have been attached to the V2 interface just as it is now in the V3 landscape. You seem to think this makes V3 superior to V2; it only does so on the false premise that this could not have been placed in to the V2 landscape.

9.  Live chess is quicker and smoother(from #2582) – again, have to disagree. I find V3's performance to be sub-par. Up-to-now, I and a few others furnished HARD EVIDENCE as to why V3 is sub-optimal. It loads MORE data. It requires MORE client-side CPU power to process all that data. Live Chess on V2 (for me) is smoother and less clunky. Others here claim V3 is faster---I really have a hard time believing that. I really do. Further, the default Live Chess board in V3 is terrible on the eyes used to seeing Pieces taken, Moves made, Time remaining, and other pertinent information in Live Settings. In V3, ALL of that is much less intuitive than V2. V2 >> V3 in Live Chess.(from#2593) I agree to disagree here. Live chess is by far the biggest improvement in V3, the loading time may be a little longer but once it is loaded the piece movement is way smoother when compared to V2. This is the main reason I started playing bullet again. (from #2613)

In order for me to prove my point, I'd have to take video screen-shots of play in V2 v. V3. And, I'm not going to bother. V2 performance is faster than V3. V2's screen design does not leave the user of want for a 'Focus Mode'. V3 almost requires it. V2's screen design is just plain easier on the eyes: clock is easier to spot, taken pieces are readily identifiable and in the correct position, move history is not cluttered with time-per-move bar-graphs, etc.

10.  Guess the move feature while observing top games. (from #2582) -- This sounds fun, but I've never tried it. I'm still not sure whether this could not have been implemented in V2 had they wanted to. Still - Guess what? If you asked me HOW to find 'Guess the move' in V3, I would not have a clue! V3 needs a serious Road Map to use. V2 does not.(from#2593) You just make a move, it's not very complicated. (from #2613)

Apparently making a counter-argument is. My 1^st point – why couldn't this have been part of V2? Re-write the code with the same V2 interface and add Guessing function/feature to the same V3 backend engine.

My 2^nd point – you don't just 'make a move'. How does one play “Guess the Move”? Martin does a far better job of actually explaining the function, because he actually does that. You end your counter-argument with an inconsequential quip, neither supporting your argument that V3 is somehow superior, nor informing myself or other readers on where/how that is accomplished. Per Martin's note:

It happens when you are watching a game. You just make the moves for either side and it keeps track of how many you get right. There is a brief explanation on how it works whey you start watching a game (in the game info tab).

Here is what is says: Guess the moves of the players by making a move on the board. Try to become the Top Guesser! (from #2607)

Essentially, a side feature that may or probably won't pay dividends to chess.com's bottom-line.

I don't recall any function in V2 ever requiring a brief explanation, though I'm sure there were many times where it might have been used. 'Chess Mentor', by the way, has a 'guess the move' feature already extent; all the coders needed to do was furnish that function in/over the Live TV video feeds coming in. While that may not be trivial, its far from impossible. That they did it with/for V3 does not preclude them for having done it with V2 or a revamped V2.

11.  Theme selection in Tactics Trainer which allows you to choose tactical themes and train exclusively on puzzles that feature them. You can even focus solely on puzzles you failed in the past. (from #2582) -- another item that could easily be in V2. The problem here is not with V2 or V3, actually. The problem with all of Tactics Training tags is the proliferation of Tags put on by wayward users who think every kind of tactic fits whatever they're imagining at the time. Windmill, Smothered Mate, Mate in 2 (when there is no mate), Basic Checkmates (for problems rated 2000+), X-Ray Attack ... anything that MIGHT ever be a side-tangent is labeled in a lot of the older problems. I've done my level best over the years to remove Tangent Tags, but they are still there, and they still show up in the stats for Tactics Training. Tag Inflation is a huge issue in both V2 & V3. (from#2593) Same point as (1) (from #2613)

Point 1… your entire premise of point 1 was patently false. This section is no different and you are not even bothering to defend the indefensible. Smart or indifferent, I am not sure. Either way, for the gazillionth time, no reason this option could not have been part of V2. 2.5 years of V3 development... .

12.  Support for over 50 languages. (from #2582) – Pretty sure this is not a V3-specific item. (from#2593) It is specific to V3, V2 did not have support for 50+ languages. (from #2613)

I found this comment to be quite educational..! Not in the way you perceive it perhaps, but it sheds light to whom you really are, under all the covers. “It is specific to V3, V2 did not have support for 50+ languages”. Stated clearly with accuracy and proficiency. Does that not make one ponder? How would an average user know such specific detail, information about the inner workings of V3? Dare I even bother to hazard a suggestion that V2 could equally be translated in to 50+ languages had the site's owners decided to head that direction

13.  Vision Trainer.(from #2582) -- Mine's called an ophthalmologist. V2 has Chess Mentor, Game Workout, Game Explorer, Online Coaching, Online Study and a plethora of other items all under the heading - "LEARN" in the top menu. What the thunder is a 'Vision Trainer'? Do we get to see a real Shaman?(from#2593)V3 has all those things. Chess mentor is now called Lessons, Game Workout is now called Drills, Game Explorer, Online Coaching under the same LEARN menu. I agree, it does not have Study and I miss it too. Vision trainer is a new feature added to V3 which is a training system to improve your visualization and move calculation skills in Chess. (from #2613)

So you just transliterated the functions to new names and locations in V3. Vision is a new feature where Study is gone. Are you really considering that a superior product to V2? Does 'Vision' out-pace 'Study' in revenue production for chess.com? Is 'Vision' something that could not have been attached to V2?

Finally - 14:

1. Your addendum notes on my additional points on why V2 is a superior product to V3:

   Other things V2 does better than V3.

• Pagination. No scrolling in to the abyss.

• Faster page loads - we have shown V2 is 2~5x faster per click.

• No character type echo-delay in V2.

• Easier to understand V2 -- no video intro required.

• Game Explorer of V2 >> V3. Its not even close. And, this is something I paid to have access to in V2. V3's version is a downgrade. How do you think that makes me feel as a paying member?

• Analysis engine done offline. The data is assimilated and presented in a format that is easy to follow and dig into.

• No eye strain. V2 is one single pane. V3 has no colors for a lot of text/icons. They are put in GRAY for whatever reason. V2's text boxes are typically Green & Orange. Subsections have a medium yellow-orange background with black text. V3 is DARK-light-DARK-light-GRAY-light-DARK contrast. Its very hard on eyes over a long period.

• No need for FOCUS mode in V2. Its already super easy to focus on games in V2.

• V2 is much easier, lighter weight on laptops AND my android. V3 is cumbersome and 'clunky', as you put it. (from#2593)

  I agree that there are some things missing in V3, for example the ability to post pictures in photo albums, Study, Custom themes, but these missing features are not enough to say that V2 is the better site.

  There are a lot more things a website upgrade brings to the table other than usability/aesthetics.

  • Security - Did you know that hackers constantly try to hack a website? For this reason it is important to keep a website and its CMS (content management system) up to date. A full upgrade is recommended every 3 years and a security check-up every 6 months for the average website.

  • Keeping up with the trend - When a customer sees a website that looks out of date, he or she performs a simple calculation: If the site looks out of touch, the customers think it equates that the services offered by the site is also out of touch. (from #2613)

You don't even bother to argue a majority of my points above—you simply concede them. Which is accurate, but concession does not permit you leverage in stating V3 is a superior product.

Security? That has nothing to do with V2 v. V3, actually. You're just updating the underlying software packages and perhaps plugging some holes in buffer overflows in the code. Stuff that could have just as easily been rectified without need to move to a new User Interface and degraded performance.

Trends? That is a business decision, not a mechanical one. Did Erik and others at chess.com do due diligence in interviewing 100+ paying customers to see what/why they preferred &/or how they used the system? Does “Guess the Move” drive in additional revenue? Trends are important to some markets, not others. When was the last time Facebook had an interface overhaul? I can tell you its been far longer than chess.com's. Have they lost out because of the 'Trendiness' factor? Mute point, and you should know it.

any premium member out there interested in setting up a V2 forever group.? and issue a challenge to v3 users for bragging rights.V2 activists and fellow travellors can also debate future strategy ,I,m a non paying member so i,m unable to initiate one but I have admin experience and I am willing to do some donkey work up until V2 bites the dust

Mic . 👋

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they need keyboard entry moves in English please- I like the new version

Well after 3013 comments in this thread, I don't think either side here is listening to the other.

The moderator isn't moderate at all. He's strongly arguing for one point of view. But I guess he has that right as a member, but I have to wonder why a "moderator" isn't moderate.

When I started reading this thread I didn't like v3. Now after reading all the bugs and problems that people have reported here while trying things that I haven't even attempted yet in v3, I am more scared of it now than I was before.

It looks to me like v3 is flawed at the core and can never be fixed, but chess.com is going to take away v2 anyway.  

Perhaps it is time for me to give up chess. I am not very good anyway.

as Madonna tweeted on hearing of George Michaels death ,

'Now 2016 can **** off ,'

Happy New Year all