Initially I thought that the request for optionality in using premoves might be reasonable, but then again why insist on playing 1 0 without using premoves ? A time control like 2 1 or 1 2 is still fairly fast play and doesn't require too much premoving.
Making Premoves optional (with workflow)
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TheMouse wrote:
The difference is now I would not currently play a no-premove game since the opponent may be using premoves, when he would have an unfair advantage. If I knew both players weren't using premoves, then I would sometimes play a no-premove game, since it is not biased.
right... so you're fine claiming that unfair advantage every time you currently play a non-premove player ? but you're not prepared to give it up ?
Why is there even a premove option in bullet ? It seems the consensus of most premove players that premoves should be automatic in bullet...
Valderino wrote:
If you don't like premoves, don't use them and find other, reliable people and friends that don't use them. Please stop posting on the daily puzzles with this thread. Thank you.
Umm... this is in the Site Feedback & Suggestions forum... where its supposed to be. what are you talking about ?
As an aside - If you don't like premoves, don't use them and find other, reliable people and friends that don't use them - how about, ah, NO. Premoves are crap - people should have the option.
RainbowRising wrote:
Funny how its only shit players complaining about premoves.
nice flamebait...
Bullet is a chess variant, and this particular variant accepts / requires the use of premoves. Just as correspondence accepts the use of books and databases. Don't like it, you should play more normal time controls.
I love the complaint about losing to someone who has 2 seconds on their clock, and blaming int on premove, not on the fact that the position must obviously be resignable/lost if one can premove their way to winning it.
Atos wrote:
Bullet is a chess variant, and this particular variant accepts / requires the use of premoves. Just as correspondence accepts the use of books and databases. Don't like it, you should play more normal time controls.
Again, while premoves may be used by many to play Bullet, they certainly aren't a requirement. In fact Bullet via internet has been around a lot longer than premoves.... and 10 years ago the majority of Bullet games certainly weren't played with premoves.
The only reason premoves are close to a requirement is because your opponent is most likely playing with premoves as well. Sounds like an arms race to me..
And I'm sorry, the current situation where one player is playing without premoves and a normal clock and another is playing with a *magic* clock just makes no sense to me at all. Either:
1. Turn premoves on for everyone playing bullet automatically or
2. Highlight on screen those who are and aren't using premvoes during the game so that people can make a conscious decision to abort the game (don't start screaming - most 2000+ players routinely abort matches because they're too lazy to set a MIN rating in their challenges)
3. Give people the option when they set a challenge - ie the motivation for this thread
By the way If you don't like it, go somewhere else has started more wars that any other attitude in history.
FirebrandX wrote:
I bet if your were to take a poll on this site, the vast majority would prefer premoves. The real question becomes whether there is enough people voting for the option to turn them off, to warrant actually spending the time and money re-coding live chess.
I take that bet :)
The only problem in a bullet game is lag . Lost countless times , the clock was 0 adn then voala 10 sec more to go , which realy made me angry until i said to my self why not play better so even lag won't stop u (in other words : mate him fast and with no mistakes ).
EthicsGradient wrote:
By the way If you don't like it, go somewhere else has started more wars that any other attitude in history.
I am not giving you any advice that I haven't taken myself, ie I don't like premoving too much so I play 2 1 which is still a fast game but it is not necessary to premove that often. However, premoving comes useful in some positions where you really just need to make a number of completely obvious moves and you don't want to spend a second or more on the clock every time you push a pawn one square forward.
In principle, the request for optionality may be reasonable but, there is any number of reasonable requests that the site will not grant if the interest is not sufficient to justify the effort.
Mar 12, 2011
0
#32
EthicsGradient wrote:
For many players, Premoves are a blight on the game and they would prefer to play without them. For many more, they love premoves and will actively fight against their removal.
Currently, however, there is no way on chess.com to play a game without premoves as one player doesn't know how the other player is configured.
The concept is simple. Make the ability to use premoves a game-by-game proposition, controlled by the player making the challenge. eg
The workflow:
1. The player creating the challenge determines whether Premoves will be Enabled or Disabled for the game. The default would be Enabled.
2. The player would only be able to use premoves if they have enabled them in their settings (current functionality) AND premoves were Enabled in the challenge (new functionality).
3. If premoves were Disabled when the challenge was created, then premoves would be disabled for both players regardless of their player settings.
4. The player would also have the ability to hide challenges on the Challenge Tab that have premoves enabled (similar to hiding computer player challenges)
5. Games with Premoves disabled would be displayed in blue (or another colour) on the Challenge Graph, with "np" beside them indicating "no premoves" (similar to u for unrated).
Would be happy to flesh out the workflow even further if there is any support out there.
Bottom line tho, is that I personally hate premoves with a passion. For me, they destroy Bullet games and I don't buy the argument put forward by those that love them - to the point that I am constantly considering doing away with playing online chess altogether.
I fully appreciate however, that there a plenty of people out there who love premoves, particularly in Bullet, and would be furious if they were removed.
The above, I believe, would be a workable compromise...
That is an interesting observation. Honestly, I like premoves, but I do see your point. Another option to add to the game settings is "Do not show games with premoves disabled". It would be interesting to see if the majority prefers blue games or green games. Premoves do have an advantage of saving you some time, but it can haunt you at times as well. If you enter a premove and your opponent blunders, then you probably can't take advantage of the blunder. Or your premove might end up being a blunder.
More importantly, there should be an "Idiots: Disabled" option.
Mar 19, 2011
0
#34
Premove, in chess, refers to the act of making a move before it is your turn to move. This option is available on chess websites such as theInternet Chess Club and FICS. To use premove, you simply make a move in the same way you would move if it was your turn. After your opponent makes his move, your move will be made in 0.1 seconds, assuming that the move is legal. Premove is not available in OTB (Over the board) chess.
FirebrandX wrote:
gwnn wrote:
FirebrandX wrote:
I bet if your were to take a poll on this site, the vast majority would prefer premoves. The real question becomes whether there is enough people voting for the option to turn them off, to warrant actually spending the time and money re-coding live chess.
I take that bet :)
Actually, you're right. I forgot there are way more weak players than strong ones.
At the moment, you don't have the option to play without premoves... so yes "strong premove bullet" players would probably agree with you..
EthicsGradient wrote:
FirebrandX wrote:
gwnn wrote:
FirebrandX wrote:
I bet if your were to take a poll on this site, the vast majority would prefer premoves. The real question becomes whether there is enough people voting for the option to turn them off, to warrant actually spending the time and money re-coding live chess.
I take that bet :)
Actually, you're right. I forgot there are way more weak players than strong ones.
At the moment, you don't have the option to play without premoves... so yes "strong premove bullet" players would probably agree with you..
... and if you're so adamant that Bullet-Chess CAN ONLY BE Bullet-with-Premove-Chess, then we should go the other way and make it mandatory for all Bullet matches... otherwise, whats the point ?
that players can play non-premove matches if, and only if, they happen to get a random opponent who also has premoves disabled ? (...and even then neither player will actually know for certain)
... bullet without premove... What would be the point? Bullet-with-premove is already filled up with so much horrible moves (even @ high ratinglevels) that you could hardly call it chess. I'll vote for a game like this, if the same vote included calling it "splash" as well and putting it on another domain, like splash.com.
Its really hard to mate someone if thats the only point of the game. A weak player could more easily just play the clock, lock up the center and slowly* loose material with better mouse skills while the better one (-noone plays like a GM in a one minute game, not even WCs-) would often need up to 60 moves to complete the mate, with obvious initiative and better play. Put a small lag (just a couple of 0.10ths) in there with it and see how it will turn out. Mouse-skills and internetconnection's gonna play out half the rating (its already a big factor).
On the contrary to what many of the supporters to a game like this think of the removal of premove, it will actually deteriote the chess beeing played and favor the hit-n-run timeplayers, wich i suspect are the ones youre trying to punish in the first place.
The option (in question) that one could tick a box when searching, I dont have any problems with it, it surely wouldnt affect me or the ones Im playing at all, although Im telling you: It will NOT make your games more "fair" and it will NOT improve your rating unless you have a great connection and feel your not getting the most of it. People will just separate and most of the time players will play the game without premove (or their edge is broken). Later on, when a premove player @2400 (whos not finding opponents in his range) decideds to play a no-premove player @2400 the only question will be: Can he mate him before time runs out?
1 min bullet games should not even be rated at all, at least rated in another colour, like orange, and not shown on your profile. and 1 min without premove in white.
to those who think of premoves as a "weapon": Youre obviously not in need of them.
Premoves has set the earlier great advantages of mouseskills and internetconnections down to a minimum. Its actually possible to beat fast opponents without state of the art rigs, maybe even from the old officecomputer. Its also possible that the crap player beats the good one, but hardly cause of premoves, "despite" of premoves, is what Id say.
So, if were talking about making chess "fair", (read: making the better player win more often) then removing premoves would be a big step backwards. Id surely vote for a survey asking it to make it "mandatory" (it surely is already). (with the option to find it and turn it off.)
etchicsgradient: My reference to the different rating system with "its own colour for 1min bullet games without premove" is obviously exaggerated and inspired by the troll who lives there [no hyperlink here].
Although I would prefer 1min bullet games (with or without premove) to not be considered part of anybodys "true" rating. If u watch peoples live profiles its amazing how much the bullet-rating and their normal ratings diverce. Bulletrating should be like an apropo.
vairamcruise wrote:
Hi how to make this thing work that is how to stop my opponent from making a premove?
As of now you cannot "stop" your opponent for making premoves against you. You should go into options and tick your own "enable premoves" wich means you can do the same - wich is moving at the time of your opponent (when he is thinking). When you have done this move it will shoot off right after he/she moves, no matter what their move is, and you could either have saved yourself half a second or made a blunder thats eventually gonna loose you the game.
The proposal from the op in here is that we put an option into the workflow, so that you dont have to learn to use, learn to take advantage of premoves yourself, but rather can do a search for particular games against other players that dont use it. So that none of you will have it enabled.
If you don't like premoves, don't use them and find other, reliable people and friends that don't use them. Please stop posting on the daily puzzles with this thread. Thank you.