Making Premoves optional (with workflow)

Initially I thought that the request for optionality in using premoves might be reasonable, but then again why insist on playing 1 0 without using premoves ? A time control like 2 1 or 1 2 is still fairly fast play and doesn't require too much premoving.

right... so you're fine claiming that unfair advantage every time you currently play a non-premove player ?   but you're not prepared to give it up ? 

Why is there even a premove option in bullet  ?  It seems the consensus of most premove players that premoves should be automatic in bullet...

Umm... this is in the Site Feedback & Suggestions  forum... where its supposed to be.   what are you talking about ?  

As an aside - If you don't like premoves, don't use them and find other, reliable people and friends that don't use them - how about, ah, NO.  Premoves are crap - people should have the option.

nice flamebait... 

Bullet is a chess variant, and this particular variant accepts / requires the use of premoves. Just as correspondence accepts the use of books and databases. Don't like it, you should play more normal time controls.

I love the complaint about losing to someone who has 2 seconds on their clock, and blaming int on premove, not on the fact that the position must obviously be resignable/lost if one can premove their way to winning it.

Again, while premoves may be used by many to play Bullet, they certainly aren't a requirement.   In fact Bullet via internet has been around a lot longer than premoves.... and 10 years ago the majority of Bullet games certainly weren't played with premoves.

The only reason premoves are close to a requirement is because your opponent is most likely playing with premoves as well.  Sounds like an arms race to me.. 

And I'm sorry, the current situation where one player is playing without premoves and a normal clock and another is playing with a *magic* clock just makes no sense to me at all.  Either: 

1. Turn premoves on for everyone playing bullet automatically or 

2. Highlight on screen those who are and aren't using premvoes during the game so that people can make a conscious decision to abort the game (don't start screaming - most 2000+ players routinely abort matches because they're too lazy to set  a MIN rating in their challenges)

3. Give people the option when they set a challenge - ie the motivation for this thread

By the way If you don't like it, go somewhere else has started more wars that any other attitude in history.

I take that bet :)

The only problem in a bullet game is lag . Lost countless times , the clock was 0 adn then voala 10 sec more to go , which realy made me angry until i said to my self why not play better so even lag won't stop u (in other words : mate him fast and with no mistakes ).

I am not giving you any advice that I haven't taken myself, ie I don't like premoving too much so I play 2 1 which is still a fast game but it is not necessary to premove that often. However, premoving comes useful in some positions where you really just need to make a number of completely obvious moves and you don't want to spend a second or more on the clock every time you push a pawn one square forward.

In principle, the request for optionality may be reasonable but, there is any number of reasonable requests that the site will not grant if the interest is not sufficient to justify the effort.

That is an interesting observation.  Honestly, I like premoves, but I do see your point.  Another option to add to the game settings is "Do not show games with premoves disabled".  It would be interesting to see if the majority prefers blue games or green games.  Premoves do have an advantage of saving you some time, but it can haunt you at times as well.  If you enter a premove and your opponent blunders, then you probably can't take advantage of the blunder.  Or your premove might end up being a blunder.

More importantly, there should be an "Idiots: Disabled" option.

Premove, in chess, refers to the act of making a move before it is your turn to move. This option is available on chess websites such as theInternet Chess Club and FICS. To use premove, you simply make a move in the same way you would move if it was your turn. After your opponent makes his move, your move will be made in 0.1 seconds, assuming that the move is legal. Premove is not available in OTB (Over the board) chess. 

At the moment, you don't have the option to play without premoves... so yes "strong premove bullet" players would probably agree with you.. 

... and if you're so adamant that Bullet-Chess CAN ONLY BE  Bullet-with-Premove-Chess, then we should go the other way and make it mandatory for all Bullet matches... otherwise, whats the point ?

that players can play non-premove matches if, and only if, they happen to get a random opponent who also has premoves disabled ? (...and even then neither player will actually know for certain)

... bullet without premove... What would be the point? Bullet-with-premove is already filled up with so much horrible moves (even @ high ratinglevels) that you could hardly call it chess. I'll vote for a game like this, if the same vote included calling it "splash" as well and putting it on another domain, like splash.com.

Its really hard to mate someone if thats the only point of the game. A weak player could more easily just play the clock, lock up the center and slowly* loose material with better mouse skills while the better one (-noone plays like a GM in a one minute game, not even WCs-) would often need up to 60 moves to complete the mate, with obvious initiative and better play. Put a small lag (just a couple of 0.10ths) in there with it and see how it will turn out. Mouse-skills and internetconnection's gonna play out half the rating (its already a big factor).

On the contrary to what many of the supporters to a game like this think of the removal of premove, it will actually deteriote the chess beeing played and favor the hit-n-run timeplayers, wich i suspect are the ones youre trying to punish in the first place.

The option (in question) that one could tick a box when searching, I dont have any problems with it, it surely wouldnt affect me or the ones Im playing at all, although Im telling you: It will NOT make your games more "fair" and it will NOT improve your rating unless you have a great connection and feel your not getting the most of it. People will just separate and most of the time players will play the game without premove (or their edge is broken). Later on, when a premove player @2400 (whos not finding opponents in his range) decideds to play a no-premove player @2400 the only question will be: Can he mate him before time runs out?

1 min bullet games should not even be rated at all, at least rated in another colour, like orange, and not shown on your profile. and 1 min without premove in white.

to those who think of premoves as a "weapon": Youre obviously not in need of them.

Premoves has set the earlier great advantages of mouseskills and internetconnections down to a minimum. Its actually possible to beat fast opponents without state of the art rigs, maybe even from the old officecomputer. Its also possible that the crap player beats the good one, but hardly cause of premoves, "despite" of premoves, is what Id say.

So, if were talking about making chess "fair", (read: making the better player win more often) then removing premoves would be a big step backwards. Id surely vote for a survey asking it to make it "mandatory" (it surely is already).  (with the option to find it and turn it off.)

etchicsgradient: My reference to the different rating system with "its own colour for 1min bullet games without premove" is obviously exaggerated and inspired by the troll who lives there [no hyperlink here].

Although I would prefer 1min bullet games (with or without premove) to not be considered part of anybodys "true" rating. If u watch peoples live profiles its amazing how much the bullet-rating and their normal ratings diverce. Bulletrating should be like an apropo.

As of now you cannot "stop" your opponent for making premoves against you. You should go into options and tick your own "enable premoves" wich means you can do the same - wich is moving at the time of your opponent (when he is thinking). When you have done this move it will shoot off right after he/she moves, no matter what their move is, and you could either have saved yourself half a second or made a blunder thats eventually gonna loose you the game.

The proposal from the op in here is that we put an option into the workflow, so that you dont have to learn to use, learn to take advantage of premoves yourself, but rather can do a search for particular games against other players that dont use it. So that none of you will have it enabled.

This is a very interesting discussion. I don't feel strongly about pre-moves, as I never play bullet. However, I must express my horror at adding a fourth rating.

First of all, a newcomer is very confused by the difference between live and on-line, and the three different ratings in live (questions "why did my [standard] rating not change when I won a [bullet] game"? are on a daily basis, and almost every friend to whom I've shown chess.com had the same question). 

More importantly, a rating is more accurate if the player plays more games. If there were two separate rating systems (premove, no-premove), players who'd play both types of games (either they have no preference, or they didn't find a seek that'd match theirs) would wind up with two ratings, both less accurate than the current unified rating.

However, the change itself sounds very reasonable-premoves, are afterall, a bit of a variant. So I'm all for making them optional, but please... no fourth rating!