Making Premoves optional (with workflow)

Sort:
Avatar of i_r_n00b

too many ppl think they are entitled to a win.

if im winning on time, its really easy to destroy peoples premoves, and run them out. usually with a check. 

if u have 30 seconds, and your opponent has 2 seconds in an equal or better position.  you prolly suck if u lose.

i dont really even care about premoves compared to lag.

also, there probably is a huge correlation between the people who can use premoves and speed of playing chess. (please don't argue with small sample biases.)

also, its not like premoves are always conditional(sometimes they are with captures). it is very risky, and many games are lost just because they premove blundered

Avatar of Puchiko
furtiveking wrote:
Puchiko wrote:
furtiveking wrote:

I'm confused why one would purpose to tell me how I can play my game. Why do you care if I use premoves? Why SHOULD you care? 


Pre-moves aren't available in OTB blitz, and they alter the nature of the game significantly. Your opponent would care if your pawn could suddenly capture straightforward - for some people, pre-moves are a change of a similar scale.

I don't know whether pre-moves will eventually overtake internet chess. Perhaps we'll one day see them as a normal, integral part of the game. But when someone suggested (14th century) that a pawn should move forward two squares on its first move, I imagine their opponent cared quite passionately. I'm not sure whether pre-moves are a change as beneficial as that, but you have to understand-when you use a non-universal rule, someone accustomed to a different rule set will naturally object.


Now I'm even more confused... how does they change the nature of the game? If anything, they are a HUGE risk for someone who doesn't konw what they are doing, and an advantage to said person's opponent. How is this any different than a person playing OTB bullet chess picking up a piece ON THEIR OPPONENTS TURN and having it in their hand ready to move after their opponent? If you watch high-level bullet chess, that happens all the time.

Anyone who thinks that premoves change the game as much as a pawn being able to take forward would change the game doesn't understand premoves.


I don't believe it is within the rules to touch a piece on their opponents turn (it might, for example, not enable the opponent to capture said piece).

Anyways, I play long games, so I don't care about pre-moves. You don't care about them for a different reason. But there are many who care passionately, so why shouldn't they have a choice to play within their ruleset (which is closer to the FIDE OTB ruleset).

Avatar of ShadowIKnight
Phelon wrote:

If you guys really feel that premoves give that much of an advantage in a bullet game, you should do everything you can to master it and see just how much of an advantage it gives. It's really not that useful unless you know what you're doing and can predict with a high degree of accuracy your opponents moves, and even then you are going to blunder away games. I only use it in desperation when I have something like 4 seconds left. But like I said if you think it's a huge advantage you should be doing everything you can to use it.


 Sorry but the issue is whether people LIKE premoves or not. Not whether they should use them or not. Eg if wearing booster rockets in the olympics made u faster, why not everyone wear them? Because it takes the "running" out of the sport =P literally -.-. Whereas thats quite an extreme example, some people feel premove ruin a tiny part of chess, and makes it unfair. Eg someone running and then some1 else running had tiny tiny jet boosters fitted on their shoes.

Avatar of ShadowIKnight
furtiveking wrote:

I'm confused why one would purpose to tell me how I can play my game. Why do you care if I use premoves? Why SHOULD you care? 


 They SHOULD care because it makes the game unfair if the one in question doesn't like premoves.

Thats why there should be this option available for np and p games.

Your missing the point with your point there, sorry =P

Avatar of ShadowIKnight
i_r_n00b wrote: also, its not like premoves are always conditional(sometimes they are with captures). it is very risky, and many games are lost just because they premove blundered

 with this last comment, most people don't =) Using premove well = definetly an advantage. Without premoves I would be stuffed. Literally. =P. Well thats my style of play, and probably every one who knows how to use premoves well and does use premoves well also would do worse off without premoves. Not gamewise perhaps, but time wise.

Premoves = an advantage on time at the expense of a little risk, which depends on how good you are.

Should that be allowed? Again, because of the yeses and noes, two separate game options should be devised.

Avatar of Phelon
ShadowIKnight wrote:
Phelon wrote:

If you guys really feel that premoves give that much of an advantage in a bullet game, you should do everything you can to master it and see just how much of an advantage it gives. It's really not that useful unless you know what you're doing and can predict with a high degree of accuracy your opponents moves, and even then you are going to blunder away games. I only use it in desperation when I have something like 4 seconds left. But like I said if you think it's a huge advantage you should be doing everything you can to use it.


 Sorry but the issue is whether people LIKE premoves or not. Not whether they should use them or not. Eg if wearing booster rockets in the olympics made u faster, why not everyone wear them? Because it takes the "running" out of the sport =P literally -.-. Whereas thats quite an extreme example, some people feel premove ruin a tiny part of chess, and makes it unfair. Eg someone running and then some1 else running had tiny tiny jet boosters fitted on their shoes.


 

 

But "premoves" are even a part of OTB chess. People will start to move a piece as their opponent is reaching for their clock, allowing them to move much faster. It's much easier to move quickly using your hands than a mouse, not having premoves would unnecessarily slow some people down. I know it slows me down a lot having to try to time when exactly my opponent will make a move, wait until then to select a piece, and then direct it to the square I want to go. Not to mention lag would often make me lose extra time. Thats one of the reasons I quit playing on yahoo chess. Here on chess.com I can select the piece Im planning to move, and after my opponent moves I just click on the square I want it to go to, just like I would do if I was playing an OTB blitz game.

Avatar of furtiveking
ShadowIKnight wrote:
furtiveking wrote:

I'm confused why one would purpose to tell me how I can play my game. Why do you care if I use premoves? Why SHOULD you care? 


 They SHOULD care because it makes the game unfair if the one in question doesn't like premoves.

Thats why there should be this option available for np and p games.

Your missing the point with your point there, sorry =P


So what if someone doesn't LIKE premoves. I don't like being beat, so should I ask for a new rule to the site that allows me to only win games?

Avatar of Puchiko

Well, no-premoves isn't a new rule. It's been around for (checks watch) some six hundred years. And unlike your proposed rule, it doesn't make the game unfair.

Avatar of Here_Is_Plenty

Bullets dont kill people, people ki...no wait...yes, Bullets are lethal.

Avatar of furtiveking
Puchiko wrote:

Well, no-premoves isn't a new rule. It's been around for (checks watch) some six hundred years. And unlike your proposed rule, it doesn't make the game unfair.


See, this is what I don't get... how are premoves unfair? Seriously... how? It potentially puts the person using them in a seriously bad position if their opponent makes a move they don't expect. Additionally, both players have the same opportunity, so how are they unfair?

Also, have you actually WATCHED a couple GMs (or IMs or any other high level players) play bullet chess? They use OTB premoves all the time! They are constantly moving pieces on their opponent's turn.

Avatar of TheGrobe

For example, see the video I posted in post #73.

If pre-moves are in any way unfair, it's that it takes a minimum of 0.1 seconds off the clock, when a player could conceivably be moving even faster than that.

Avatar of Puchiko

You can't move pieces on your opponent's turn. A few years back, there was a high-profile dispute between two players: one had made moves after their opponent let go of their piece, but before pressing the clock (see Chessbase article and the USCF reply). Now, the case was settled simply: that's okay, you can move before your opponent punches the clock. But you can't move before your opponent has, only the player having the move can touch pieces.

Avatar of TheGrobe

Well, those games were not bullet time controls, and this is not the USCF or FIDE.

Avatar of Puchiko

That's true, but that's no reason to add random rules. Would we add a ninth rank and still call it chess?

All this thread is asking for is that those who wish to play without pre-moves can do so. Why would this be a problem for you?

Avatar of TheGrobe

It's hardly a random rule, it has utility that is directly applicable to the game, particularly at those time controls, however its use also carries some risk.

I don't have a problem, actually, with the proposal aside from the fact that the time it would take to implement could probably be spent on something more worthwhile.  I think it's actually an elegant solution that would address everyone's concerns, but at the same time, I think the concerns of the anti-premove faction are somewhat fatuous.

Avatar of Here_Is_Plenty

I don't think anyone can have any objection to a level playing-field.  The addition of challenging with non-premove is common sense.  Bizarre really that the option is not there already.

Avatar of TheGrobe

But it is a level playing field -- you are not prevented from using pre-move yourselves.

Avatar of Here_Is_Plenty
TheGrobe wrote:

But it is a level playing field -- you are not prevented from using pre-move yourselves.


 True.  To be fair I have never played Bullet.  Must try it one day when I grow a pair.  How about people that just want to play regular fast games without what is effectively a mechanical aid?  As someone else pointed out you couldn't do it OTB.

Avatar of TheGrobe

How about playing with a small increment (1 1 for example)?  It won't prevent your opponent from using pre-moves, but it will allow you enough breathing room that they really shouldn't factor like they do in 1 0.

Avatar of TheGrobe

On the flip side, it would be an interesting experiment to allow premove only games here in which every move must be pre-moved.

Unfortunately, since the 0.1 sec minimum this isn't really possible anymore, but when pre-moves (correctly, in my opinion) didn't cost any time, simply enabling a 0 0 time limit would have effectively implemented this.