The Fried Liver Attack and the Lolli Attack

The Fried Liver Attack at worst for white is 3 black pawns for a white knight but with the lolli can anyone find a refutation? I'm backing the Lolli Attack. So I'll try to refute any suggestions if I have time to.

Fried Liver:1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7

Lolli Attack:1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 exd4 7.0-0

Traxler's counterattack against both:1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 Bc5(This line does not work according to computer analysis.)

There is also the line of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5

And: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 Nxe5

P.S sorry for the no boards

Could someone else post the boards please? I have no time ot post boards

I hate fried liver! Almost everyone I play against in live chess(2min >) use that opening. Its a stupid opening, but effective against beginners. If you just develop your pieces as normal, white has lost an officer for almost nothing. It annoys me though, that beginners falls for this opening, and that some people get higher rankings than they deserve because of it.

The fried liver is sound dude.  It scores better than almost all White openings do in master play.  The Lolli scores even better.

It's true the fried liver and the lolli worh very well. Bobby Fiscer(One of the best chessplayers in history) played the lolli.

What idiot would play exd4 in the lolli to open up their king?

Traxaler doesnt work according to computer lnalysys because.

1. Your computer is wooden

2. You are running Rybka pro v0.1

3. You were sold a fake version of Fritz

4. Computers generally favour material and tactical chances over time, space, quality of pieces, pawn structure, solidity, etc. If you are running a poor chess engine then it is almost certain the computer did not take into full account everything else.

There were 500 posts here around half a year ago explaining the traxaler...hopefully I can find htem.

How about not taking the pawn and using it as shelter for your king??

1.How do you use it for a shelter?

2.The Traxler's counterattack does not work because of:1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Ke3

3.My coach agrees with me and said,"The lolli Attack works without a doubt."

4.My computer is not wooden

5.I have Fritz6 and Crafty (I have to agree with you here my engines suck)

6.I have a real version of Fritz

7.You are wrong about computers generally favouring material and tactical chances over time, space, quality of pieces, pawn structure, solidity, etc. because they do consider points in all of them fairly and in what value they actually would have in the games.

could more people please reply?

Main refutations of the fried liver and the lolli :

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf3 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4

How do the moves in bold work?

Throwing my two cents in: These openings should only be played in blitz.  There has not been an international tournament in years that featured either of these lines, which shows you what the GMs think about them.  I can forgive weaker players for using them, because they are still learning--I used to play them, too.  But one thing I noticed--as I got stronger, they somehow got weaker.  I'm sure you'll notice that, too.  But keep on taking a stance and playing to your convictions.  That attitude will help make you a stronger player, also.

No, This is one of the few bad things chess engines have, they really favour material. The only time I drew fritz9 in a blitz game was once that I sacrificed an exchange and 3 pawns for counter play.

WRONG: Between 1982 and 2006 I have found 21 games played at Olympiad level where the Fried Liver Attack was used.  Out of all of those games 17 were won by white, 1 was a draw and 3 were won by black.  Statistics don't lie.

The underlying positional advantages of the Fried Liver Attack make it a good opening, and at almost all the top levels of play black will counter sacrifice his Knight, rather than try to defend it in the long run in order to re-gain some initiative that white had aggressively taken from him.

I also want to mention that no one gets a higher ranking than they deserve because of the way they play.  If this opening is as useless as you claim then why does it seem to yield such good results against very strong players?

if your best argument is that because he accidentially wrote f3 instead of f6 then what he says cant be trusted he won this discussion:) what does a spellingmistake have to do with his ability of judgement? is very obvious that he ment nf6 and thats a reasonable move:) or is it bad judgement to you? did you seriously thought he was gonna move Bc4 and Nf3 at the same turn or did you just wanted to insult other players? we dont need that

I sometimes use the fried liver attack. Is that the real name for the opening by the way? ive never heard of it.

The reason it's not played in high level tournaments is because black doesn't play Nxd5, he plays Na5 to avoid it. It usually goes 5...Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Be7 h6 9. Nf6 e4 10.Ne5 Bd6 11. d4 which leaves black a pawn down with some compensation--better than walking into the Fried Liver/Lolli. 

Actually, I think the 2 knights in general is not played so much at the top because it's generally acknowleged that black doesn't get enough for the pawn.  But yes, if the 2 knights is played it's nearly always with Na5 in mind.