Suppose 3450 AlphaZero Gives 100:1 Time Odds to 2835 Magnus. How would Magnus Do?

JuergenWerner

From the cheating forum:

 

"Maybe they did put AZ up against SF 10 and the results weren't to their liking. These matches are all behind closed doors and run by a company whose motives might not be purely scientific." - Weevil99.

 

Well @Weevil99, Kasparov did mention that AlphaZero does play human like attacking chess...

Sartradjm

He would have lost 100:1.

rychessmaster1
aa-ron1235 wrote:
rychessmaster1 wrote:
SeniorPatzer wrote:
rychessmaster1 wrote:

At 100:1 time odds, I would beat anyone

WITH THE 1

 

You get 500 minutes with no increment/delay against Magnus Carlsen with 5 minutes and no increment/delay.

 

Magnus would win. 

Maybe, but i'm good

Against everyone but me maybe. you have a minute and i have 10, i win

1 year later: beats him in 10 straight games.

llamonade2

Time odds can only compensate for a few 100 rating points. Maybe Carlsen is close enough that it matters, but IMO it's not an interesting handicap.

More interesting is limiting an engine to calculate only as much as a human. Lets say 1 move per second. And since alpha zero doesn't rely on calculation the way AB engines do, it would be interesting.

Arisktotle

Humans have a ceiling on their evaluation scores determined my memory capacity and physical endurance. They won't do any better on a 1000 hrs/move than on 1 hr/move - average time. As long as AlphaZero gets sufficient time to be clearly above Carlsen's ceiling it doesn't matter how long Carlsen is permitted to think.

jitterbugflapping
Alpha zero wins. It can still calculate much faster than any human could calculate
antisunechess

I think they would score equal points. If Magnus complexes stuff and drags the game into the endgame, he can win

BonTheCat
SeniorPatzer wrote:

But yes, AlphaZero does get to "think" on Magnus's time.  And the clock would have to be set up in tenths of a second, and AlphaZero can thereby make some of its moves in tenths of a second in order to not flag.  After all, 72 seconds is just 72 moves if the smallest time unit expended is a second.  Therefore, the smallest time unit will be set to tenths of a second.  

If so, it wouldn't make any real difference, I think. It's unlikely that the AlphaZero would overlook that many human moves and be forced to go into the tank.

If it wasn't allowed to use Magnus' time, I think Carlsen would win. 72 seconds is very little time against the world's best player if he is given 120 minutes plus 30 seconds per move. Having said that, in any such situation, the human is at some disadvantage since AlphaZero is embedded in the interface itself and consequently can make what to all intents and purposes are instant moves, whereas the human being will always spend time and be distracted by having to perform the moves on the board and press the clock, regardless of whether it's on a screen or a DGT board.

drmrboss
BonTheCat wrote:
SeniorPatzer wrote:

But yes, AlphaZero does get to "think" on Magnus's time.  And the clock would have to be set up in tenths of a second, and AlphaZero can thereby make some of its moves in tenths of a second in order to not flag.  After all, 72 seconds is just 72 moves if the smallest time unit expended is a second.  Therefore, the smallest time unit will be set to tenths of a second.  

If so, it wouldn't make any real difference, I think. It's unlikely that the AlphaZero would overlook that many human moves and be forced to go into the tank.

If it wasn't allowed to use Magnus' time, I think Carlsen would win. 72 seconds is very little time against the world's best player if he is given 120 minutes plus 30 seconds per move. Having said that, in any such situation, the human is at some disadvantage since AlphaZero is embedded in the interface itself and consequently can make what to all intents and purposes are instant moves, whereas the human being will always spend time and be distracted by having to perform the moves on the board and press the clock, regardless of whether it's on a screen or a DGT board.

The match against Stockfish played at 10:1 time difference

 

Any top engines like Lc0 and Stockfish can give x1000 time odds to any 2800 human.

 

According to our tests, 1 sec per move thinking of Stockfish is 3200 rating. 0.1 second per move is 3000 rating.

 

In decent hardware running on $ 3000 PC, Stockfish or LC0 can theoretically give time odds to Magnus like,

1 min vs 24 hour  handicap.

BonTheCat

drmrboss: Wow? Really? It's as bad as that these days?

drmrboss
BonTheCat wrote:

drmrboss: Wow? Really? It's as bad as that these days?

Theoretically, it goes like this.

 

Kasparov 2800 minimally lose to Deep blue and Deep blue become 2875 rating. 

 

Fritz and other chess programs played 2800 rated Kramnik and other GM in 1999 to 2004. Deep Fritz beat Kramnik 4:2 and become 2900 rated.

 

 

Stockfish 11 today can beat that same deep fritz by x100 time odd  handicap and become 3500+.

 

Today hardware $3000 is x10 more powerful than those days in 10 years ago.

 

Theoretically x1000 time handicap is equivalent.

BonTheCat

drmrboss: I wasn't thinking in terms of the general strength. I know that any game now at ordinary time controls between the world champion and any of the good engines would be completely pointless. I was just surprised that even at such extremely shortened time odds, the outcome would still be annihilation.