1. NF1-NF3 back to NF1

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benonidoni

I played a person who moved 1. NF3. I moved 1... NF6 He moved 2.NF1. I looked that up in the powerbook and the only move was 2.... NG8. That seems awfully dumb doesn't it? Le Quang, Liem played it in 2011 with white and ELO of 2717

ThrillerFan

First off, 2.Nf1 is illegal.  I assume you mean 2.Ng1, and whatever this stupid (yes, I say "STUPID") powerbook thing is is something you need to dump because after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.Ng1?, the move 2...Ng8 is not best.  That would imply that if White moved 1.Nf3 and Black could pass that 2.Ng1 would be White's best move.  Bullsh*t!

 

Plus, no computer, bot, machine, program, anything should be deciding your second move.  Common sense  says that 2...c5, 2...d5, and 2...e5 are all fine.

benonidoni

I'm sorry I meant G1. Knight from G1 and back to G1 again. On chessbase it shows a few over 2000 elo level games with this move.  Source "Powerbook 2017"

ThrillerFan
benonidoni wrote:

I'm sorry I meant G1. Knight from G1 and back to G1 again. On chessbase it shows a few over 2000 elo level games with this move.  Source "Powerbook 2017"

 

"a few over 2000 elo level games" - I guarantee you a "few games" means nothing.

 

There might be 20 games that start 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.Ng1.

 

I guarantee you that there are far more games with a move like 2.c4 or 2.d4 or 2.g3

tmkroll

Those were prearranged draws or agreements to make a time control?

tmkroll

Also a lot of databases keep positions rather than specific move orders in order to catch transpositions so if you're looking at the position after 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. Ng1 the most common "continuation" for Black could very well be 2... Ng8 transposing to literally every game in the database, but that doesn't mean that move was ever actually played.

Dsmith42

If black plays 1. ..d5, 2. Ng1 leads to an opening called the Wild Snail.  A friend of mine beat a 2100 in tournament play with it not long ago.  Think of it as hypermodernism taken to an extreme - the point is to bait black into overextending his center, then attacking the flanks with the pawns, knights, and bishops.  Not to be taken lightly in the hands of someone who knows what he's doing.

Preggo_Basashi

Nf3-f1-f3

Played at the world cup

But not in the first 3 moves wink.png  (Moves 3, 7, and 11)

 

 

Preggo_Basashi
Dsmith42 wrote:

If black plays 1. ..d5, 2. Ng1 leads to an opening called the Wild Snail.  A friend of mine beat a 2100 in tournament play with it not long ago.  Think of it as hypermodernism taken to an extreme - the point is to play a bunch of shitty moves, get a losing position, but then win in the end due to a horrible blunder or time pressure, then pretend the opening is worth naming.

Yeah, I can see how that'd be true.

Preggo_Basashi

 Although I might have misquoted you a bit somewhere in there.

Preggo_Basashi

Ok, but you can do that without giving your opponent 2 moves in a row.

1.Nf3 followed by 2.Ng1 has no purpose other than something psychological (either trying to influence your opponent's state of mind, and/or enjoying your own state of mind)

HorribleTomato

 There's 1,532,262 games with 2.Ng1 and EVERY. SINGLE. REPLY. Was Ng8.

ThrillerFan
Optimissed wrote:

<<2.Ng1 has no purpose other than something psychological (either trying to influence your opponent's state of mind, and/or enjoying your own state of mind>>

That's the point and it obviously loses if black knows how to play.

 

Well, and here's the other thing.  Another common mistake, and a point that I make in an article I wrote last Saturday (http://charlottechesscenter.blogspot.com/2018/06/the-french-connection-volume-9.html), is that people often give two classifications for openings and there should really be three!  You have normal, main stream openings that you better know like the back of your hand if you ever intend to reach master.  You have offbeat lines that have relevance, are not often played at the master level because theoretically they are nothing better than equal for White which is not what White wants at the top level, and then you have garbage lines.

 

Here's the mistake amateurs make.  Let's use the French as an example since that's what my article covers and it's my area of expertise.  There are 5 so-called "main lines" by White, some of which give Black multiple options.  3.Nc3 (which has multiple options within), 3.Nd2 (which also has multiple options within), 3.e5, 3.exd5, and 2.d3 intending 3.Nd2 (King's Indian Attack).  If you are going to master the French, you need to know these 5 responses cold.  You may not need to know both the Winawer and the 3...Nf6 lines and 3...dxe4, but you better know at least one of them really well.

 

Now amateurs that study the French will think one of two things.  Either this is all they need to know, or else they worry to all ends of the early about all other responses that exist.  Oh my god what do I do after 2.f4?  What do I do after 2.a3?  The answer is you apply opening principles, and you do comparisons to the main lines, similar to what I do in that article, where two "garbage lines" were played against me in recent weeks, and all I had to do really is both is apply some common sense and some comparisons to the Milner-Barry Gambit, and I won both games quite easily!

 

But then there are those lines that are not total garbage, but are "offbeat".  In the French, that would be 2.b3, the Two Knights Variation (1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3), and the Wing Gambit (1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e5 c5 4.b4).  Do you need to know these lines?  Absolutely!  You won't face them near as often, and so knowing the typical ideas for White and Black, understanding the long term plans for both players, the traps that must be watched out for, etc, is totally sufficient, and you don't need to go fishing for the latest novelty on move 18 like you might in the French Winawer - Poisoned Pawn Variation, but you also can't just ignore it completely!

 

Therefore, this 2.Ng1 line would easily go into the "Garbage Line" category, and applying simple, common sense and possibly a few comparisons to normal openings similar to whatever structure you play as Black, like maybe after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.Ng1 d5 3.d4 c5, you could make comparisons of your position to the White side of the Queen's Gambit Accepted, Declined, or Slav, depending on White's next move, and then realize the free move with the Knight, like as if you have the equivalent position to 1.d4 (Black doesn't move) 2.Nf3 d5 3.c4 with Black to move, and then let's say White plays 4.e3, which would be the equivalent to 3...e6 in our comparison.  Now compare what you have to the normal White side of the Queen's Gambit Declined, and think about the things that maybe White normally can't  do because they are too slow and what this extra move can mean for your position.  Is there a typical attack that White has that never quite works and only draws because Black can hold on by a thread with some powerful defense.  Does your extra move refute said defense, etc.

 

Check out the French Article that I gave the URL to above and you'll see what I mean, especially in the second game, but even the first one.  Both games required nothing more than common sense and a few comparisons.  The same should apply after garbage like 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.Ng1 if you are Black.

Preggo_Basashi

Yeah, I mean analyzing or giving rationale for 1.Nf3 followed by 2.Ng1 is really silly.

"garbage" sums it up completely.

TitanChess666
Chess dot com says the same thing!
benonidoni

11 players have played it with both over 2000ELO and there were 8 draws all of which the black pieces went back to 2... ng8 2 wins for black and 1 win for white. The player with white was a 2770elo. " Source Chessbase Opening Encyclopedia 2018"

 

I myself played 2.. NC6 and won because I had such a huge advantage on development of pieces and activity against a slightly better player than me.