Yep, I have played this line a lot. With best play, it just comes out dead equal. It is a playable variation that is rarely seen.
3 Qf3 Caro-Kann Defense
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if thats weird
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 h5!!!!!!!!! 5. Bd3 a5!!!!!!!!!
Of course i don't play that.
Jul 20, 2011
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#4
The problem with Black's trying 1 e4 c6 2 Nc3 d5 3 Qf3 d4 is 4 Bc4. I just got killed with that line.
Jul 20, 2011
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#5
It's always been 3...dxe4 4 Nxe4. Usually, there follows 4...Nf6 5 Nxf6+ gxf6. I've been getting OK games, but he keeps managing to give me hanging e- and f-pawns and then attacking them. It's a slow loss, but it's still a loss.
An interesting article on this opening:
http://brooklyn64.com/2011/the-dunst-attacking-the-caro-kann-with-an-early-queen-sortie/
Jul 21, 2011
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#7
Oh, no, ...exf6 is just losing. Slowly, but it loses. White gets a healthy queenside pawn majority for nothing--he doesn't even have to give up the two bishops for it. The endgame will belong to White. No, ...gxf6 is better. Black usually holds back his e-pawn and f-pawns and delays castling. A rook goes on g8.
Jul 22, 2011
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#8
Really? Bear in mind that I'm about 1930 USCF, and this only comes up when I play the club's master. He plays it as White (only against me, though). I'd like to see how a game with ...exf6 would go, though.
Jul 22, 2011
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#9
The 800 lb gorilla in this conversation is the similarity to the more normal 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nxf6+ and either 5...gxf6 or 5...exf6 is playable.
No, 5...exf6 is not losing. That being said, I've never been a fan of it. Personally I play the 4...Nd7 Smyslov variation.
5...gxf6 is one of the sharper dynamic moves available in the Caro-Kann. Basically, in this context, "sharp and dynamic" means "black had better find some piece activity because structure-wise he stands significantly worse". Generally speaking, beware of lines which an author claims as "dynamic" !
So back to the original question - I don't know what the BEST move is to play against 1.e4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Qf3 - but it does stand to reason that if black chooses to play 3...dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nxf6+ then he can play either 5...exf6 or 5...gxf6 with a slightly better position that in the main lines of ...Nf6.
For this reason, I don't think 2.Nc3 and 3.Qf3 are highly critical lines.
Jul 22, 2011
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#10
My Speelman book on the Caro-Kann gives some critical lines against ...exf6, and he concludes at least that black is in a small amount of trouble.
I'm also not a fan of the ...gxf6 lines. It's a strange move for a Caro-Kann player. 1.e4 c6 BORING 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6?! 5.Nxf6+ gxf6?! Wait, whaaa? Apparently not all Caro-Kann players are boring!
Jul 22, 2011
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#11
I want to say that it was lines with c3, Bd3, Qc2, but I don't remember any specific mover orders.
I've always found the Bronstein-Larsen/Korchnoi variations to be antithetical to the Caro-Kann's reputation for solidity. Why volunteer for doubled pawns? Why try for a dynamic system? You played 1...c6! I love the Caro-Kann because I can use it to shut down my opponent's dream of a mating attack. If I wanted to be the attacker, I'd use the Alekhine or Sicilian.
e4
c6
d4
d5
Then go call in for a ultimate break and try another opening.
Jul 25, 2011
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#16
ajedrecito wrote:
Well, after 4.Bc4 e6 5.Ne2 c5 the game looks pretty equal. I still prefer 3...dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 (or 4...Nf6 where GM Schandorff, in his excellent book for Grandmaster Repertoire series for Quality Chess, rightly says that 5.Nxf6+ exf6 is not a problem for Black because 'if White takes on f6 then Black's development speeds up.'
4...Nd7 5.d4 Ndf6 is 'solid and okay' as well. Black scores about 60% after this in practice.
Interesting points.
- After 1.e4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Qf3 d4 4.Bc4 e6 5.Ne2 c5, it seems to me that white still has some opening advantage. Black hasn't moved any pieces, and white has done some version of the old "get out my light colored bishop, play e4 and d3" opening, but a little better for him than other versions of this. The DB here (games explorer) is thin, but shows 3 white wins and 1 draw in 4 games.
- After 1.e4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Qf3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nxf6+ exf6, I still think it's too simplistic to say it's fine for black because "if white takes on f6 then black's development speeds up". One can use exactly that statement to recommend the Larsen variation in the main line, and it's not super wonderful for black. It might be ok, it might be holding, but I don't think it's extremely pleasant.
- After 4...Nd7 5.d4, black can play either knight to f6, with ...Ndf6 being slightly more popular but ...Ngf6 scoring slightly better. My gut tells me that at best the position is equal, with black scoring better because only weaker players play this way for white.
The other thing of note, from looking at games explorer, is that after 1.e4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Qf3 dxe4 4.Nxe4, the most popular (and best scoring) choice is ...Nd7.
http://www.chess.com/explorer/index.html?id=423041&ply=7&black=0
88 times black plays ...Nd7, compared to 20 times for 2nd place ...Nf6. Also, ...Nd7 scores an impressive 35.2% wins and 44.3% draws, for a score of 57.35%. Conversely, for ...Nf6 right away, black scores a meager 30% wins with 25% draws, for a score of 42.5%.
I forget what a Karo-kann defence is! ლ(ಠ_ಠლ)
Feb 7, 2012
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#18
Cyruscyrus: A Caro-Kann Defense is 1 e4 c6. It usually continues 2 d4 d5 3 Nc3 dxe4 4 Nxe4, with 4...Bf5 or 4...Nd7 or 4...Nf6, or else 2 Nc3 d5 3 Nf3 dxe4 4 Nxe4 Bg4. This thread is devoted to the line my master friend plays as White, which is 1 e4 c6 2 Nc3 d5 3 Qf3, which is rarely played but which I have been trying to work out how to play against.
Feb 7, 2012
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#19
I keep getting hanging f- and e- pawns, against which my master friend plays. How do you either prevent that or defend it?
My master friend consistently plays 1 e4 c6 2 Nc3 d5 3 Qf3 against me. I can't find anything in my opening references about it. If it is an inferior line, why? Fritz recommends 3...d4 and 4...e5, but I have trouble believing that that's really what I'm supposed to play. Does anyone know this line?