Best Black Openings for English Lovers?

As White I play the English almost exclusively. Have for over fifteen years. As Black...lots of different stuff, none of which I love (except the Symmetrical against the English, which works for me). My question is...what are some good openings for black against 1. e4 and 1. d4 that FEEL right to lovers of the English?

I play the English and usually play the Caro-Kann against 1. e4 and the Slav against 1. d4. Against the English I play 1...c6.

I'm quite happy with my repertoire. Perhaps later I can post a few lines/ideas that I use if you want.

What do you like about playing the English as White? May make your choice easier.

SJFG wrote:

I play the English and usually play the Caro-Kann against 1. e4 and the Slav against 1. d4. Against the English I play 1...c6.

I'm quite happy with my repertoire. Perhaps later I can post a few lines/ideas that I use if you want.

I'd appreciate that if you have the time.

blitzcopter wrote:

What do you like about playing the English as White? May make your choice easier.

Good point. General hyper modern-ness. Staying out of the middle but controlling it. Fianchetto'ing the bishops.

Well the Sicilian Defense is sometimes considered to be the black sided verision of the English Opening.

However, as white you are up a tempo since you go first.

It makes things more tricky as black.

However, if you are looking for a line vs 1.e4

Than maybe 1...c5 can fit the bill with some English Tendency's.

Techinically speaking the Pawn formation white has in the Fianchetto lines can be similar to the Accelerated Dragon.

Thanks xplayerjx. I've avoided diving very deeply into those because I don't want to do a lot of memorization. But I need to step up my game.

Racist?!

[COMMENT DELETED] When I edited my comment it created a double post.

As X_PLAYER_J_X wrote, the Hyper Accelerated Dragon could fit with the English. I used to play it and the Grunfeld as they both had Black fianchettoing the kingside bishop and playing c5, similar to what White does in the English, but I eventually stopped playing it because being a move down makes it a lot different.

Anyway, my basic idea with the Caro-Kann and Slav is to have smooth development of my pieces and keep a solid pawn structure. Usually Black will aim for an e5 or c5 pawn break. There are a lot of different variations you could choose from, but here are some that I play:

The rat will get you into some English type games.

Against 1.e4 i play 1...d5 Scandinavian

Against 1.d4 i play 1...Nf6 Benko Gambit

The Dragon Sicilian is essentially the same thing, although if you do not care for sharp lines it isn't idea; white's attack is very easy (check out the Yugoslav attack)

Against d4 I love the King's Indian or Benko gambit, especially with the KID you could go for c5 pawn breaks, although I prefer the e5 one.

Caro-kann is solid, but can result in draws.

If you like the hypermodern openings, I know a lot of people who like Owen's or the Modern defence (1... b6 or 1...g6 respectively) although I never cared for them.

Thanks everyone. Lots to think about here. I've tried the KID but may need to give it a deeper look. @SJFG thanks for the details! Interesting.

The Accelerated Dragon is not as tactical as the Normal Dragon.

Which might be slightly more to your liking if you like the slightly quiet aspect of the English.

It is not extremely sharp.

It also avoids facing the Yugoslav Attack which is very tactical and sharp played against the Normal Dragon.

Same idea can't be done to the Accelerated Dragon.

Which is also why black can not play a Yugoslav Attack vs the English Opening.

The analysis SJFG showed on the Caro-Kann has errors in it.

If 11.Bf4 I think the best move is 11...Qa5+

After which 12.Bd2  Qc7  13.0-0-0 0-0-0

The position turns into the mainline.

I do not think castling king side vs 11.Bf4 is very attractive to be honest.

In SJGF analysis 17.c4  drops a piece.

17...Qf5+  picks up the bishop on f4.

Thanks again xplayerjx

@X_PLAYER_J_X,

I was quickly putting in the moves and got mixed up. White doesn't play 17. c4 in the Bf4 lines, but in the Bd2 lines. Now corrected. Thanks!

Castling kingside is fine in the Caro. GMs such as Dreev, Kramnik, and Anand have done it.

I have castled  both king and queen side vs 11.Bd2

However, I have never tryed castling king side vs 11.Bf4

Very interesting idea you bring up.

Perhaps I should relook at the idea of castling king side vs 11.Bf4.

I thought the best move was 11...Qa5+

Another clarification for the OP.

Do you play the English as an "Opening" or a "System"?  In other words, do you use it as a real attacking weapon, where say, after 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nc6 that you realize that 3.Bg2 is an error and play 3.Nc3?  Or are you one of those that pays no attention to what Black is doing, close your eyes, play 1.c4, 2.g3, 3.Bg2, 4.Nc3, 5.d3, and then open your eyes and play chess?  Also, do you at all cost avoid transpositions to QP openings even when d4 is the best move, like in some cases of the Symmetrical English where White has nothing better than 7.d4, transposing to a Fianchetto King's Indian?  Or another prime example of using it as an opening vs a system is understanding that the Botvinnik Setup is not good as a "catch-all" system, and that it only works against ...e5 lines and that against the Symmetrical, it's garbage?  Or do you use it as a Lazy Man's Opening and don't truly understand that White has absolutely ZIP after 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2?! f5! 4.Nc3 Nf6! where Black has equalized and instead should play 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Nc3! f5 4.Nf3! Nf6 5.d4! e4 6.Nh4! and Develop the Bishop to e2 or d3, giving the h4-knight the g2-square once you probe the pawn to g5, and then pressure it with h4, and using f4 for the Knight after Black trades or plays ...g4?

All of that information would be helpful.

If you are a TRUE ENGLISH PLAYER, I would recommend one of the less theoretical, less tactical Sicilian lines, like the Taimanov or Kan against e4, and the Nimzo-Indian, a well-known Hypermodern Opening, against 1.d4.

If you are a LAZY SYSTEM PLAYER, I would recommend the Modern Defense against everything.  It's not very good, but it's the same "pattern" type play every game except when White plays 1.b3 or 1.b4.