Colle System

Just asking, but why wouldn't black go 5 ... c6? Seems a little too defensive for white.

Right. If Black played 5...c6, then the White bishop would move to c2 and still be able to defend the e4 square in preparation for e4.

Hmm Actually Colle is not that simple or passive I love the colle zukertort variation Bb2.. And just storm the K side Ne5 f4 g4 etc There are excelent works on the Colle I suggest the Polgar DVD on the Colle, I played it a few times in classic time control and I confess I was not able to make that great attacks as seen on books/dvd's, but every opening can be a great choice according to you humour

That variation seems to be quite popular.

The Colle looks pretty passive.  Your own pawns end up blocking you in.  What about the Stonewall Attack instead?  1.d4 Nf6 2.e3 d5 3.Bd3 c5 4.c3 e6 5.f4 intending to advance your kingside pawns if black castles on that side.

lol

rigamagician> Your own pawns end up blocking you in.

That's not quite right. White's dark-squared bishop starts out blocked in by the e3 pawn, but it usually ends up quite active after e3-e4-e5.

In that particular line, black could have played much more aggressively 3...Bf5 4.Bd3 Bxd3 5.Qxd3 with an early ...Ne4 and ...f5.  Maybe white would do better to play 2.e3 and then 3.Bd3 to prevent this.  In any case, the Stonewall Attack seems to have been much more popular than the Colle back in Colle's time.

If Black plays anti-Colle (3...Bf5) lines, White plays his anti-Colle (4.c4) lines, and the warfare continues. In any event, 3...e6 is the mainline and the game illustrates how White usually gets his dark-squared bishop into the game. This supports the point I made that it starts out blocked, but it usually ends up quite active.

Agreed.

In your anti-anti-Colle, the queen's bishop stills gets blocked in.

  I don't see where the advantages came in for white are. Black on the hand has a better end game ahead of it. I'll take black to win after everything is said and done.                                                                                                                 

It leads to very fast games. Think about it, 17 moves in and both sides only have two minor pieces, both of their rooks, and six pawns left. I think black has a small advantage in this opening.

rigamagician> In your anti-anti-Colle, the queen's bishop stills gets blocked in.

Note the word usually. 3...Bf5 is played in only 17% of games. White scores 54% after 4.c4, indicating that White is fine in this line as well.

[Removing example game I won in this line nine days ago.]

There is a lot of theory to it, but I have never really studied the queen's gambit and always got great positions out of it. I know the general slav positions and all of the ideas by looking at it but not just a ton of moves. I think it sounds insane to say that it does require alot of theory. Again, there is alot of it, but it's not so necessary and I would absolutely never be afraid to play the QG without going over lines. It's a quiet opening, not many tricks here. Like I said 3 e4 will require theroy as well as that gambit from the main line slav. I wouldn't be afraid to play the QG if there was someone who knew every single move out of every line of it as black.

I must say that I think 3. Bf5 is a poor line and after as likeforests suggested 4. c4 White can transpose into a favourable QG position for white due to the well known point that in almost all QG lines Black should not develop his Bishop out away from it's crucial defense of the Q-Side, which can be exploited in most cases by ideas such as Qb3.

I guess that depends what level you play at. At a high level it's absolutely required to know lots of lines.

Again, you guys are discussing the VARIATION, not the SYSTEM. This variation might favor Black, and others might favor White. I'm only using the diagram as an example; I didn't intend for it to be analyzed for advantages and disadvantages. The point of this thread is to discuss the Colle as a whole, not just one variation.

Thank you.

well those who like the colle will probably like its cousin the London system!!1.d4  2.Nf3  3. Bf4 4. e3

But one variation could refute an entire opening. The best White openings have 0 variations that are favourable for Black (presuming best play from White). It's hard to try and prove anything about an opening without using variations.