d4/c4 attacking schemes?

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Avatar of BirdsDaWord

Hello, I am a 1. f4 player.  I enjoy playing it, and I do well with it.  So why would I be asking this?  

Simply put - I think it is good for a chess player to expand his horizons.  I do this from time to time to appreciate new ideas that I normally might not experience in 1. f4 games, and then when I go back, I have a newfound appreciation for it.

Here is my request:

Please put all your ideas for setups with 1. d4 and 2. c4 that offer White strong attacking chances, while maintaining positional advantages as well.  I am not looking for razor-sharp lines.  Many of the 1. f4 lines offer positional advantages, in the form of connected pawns that often turn into kingside pawn storms.  The center of the board is not open, so it often limits a tactically-inclined opponent. 

If this is an implausible question, just please humor me :-)

Avatar of BirdsDaWord

Tell me your favorite lines and why you like them.  I can look at line after line, but a few simple explanations of plans should suffice, maybe a couple of simple games of your favorite attacking setups. 

Avatar of LAexpress12

f4 is badass. But only if u play the nimzo larsen the bird is just ridicuolous.

Avatar of ghostofmaroczy
BirdBrain wrote:

Hello, I am a 1. f4 player.  I enjoy playing it, and I do well with it.  So why would I be asking this?  

Simply put - I think it is good for a chess player to expand his horizons.  I do this from time to time to appreciate new ideas that I normally might not experience in 1. f4 games, and then when I go back, I have a newfound appreciation for it.

Here is my request:

Please put all your ideas for setups with 1. d4 and 2. c4 that offer White strong attacking chances, while maintaining positional advantages as well.  I am not looking for razor-sharp lines.  Many of the 1. f4 lines offer positional advantages, in the form of connected pawns that often turn into kingside pawn storms.  The center of the board is not open, so it often limits a tactically-inclined opponent. 

If this is an implausible question, just please humor me :-)


I like the white side of this: 1 d4 f5 2 g3 Nf6 3 Bg2 g6 4 Nf3 Bg7 5 c4 0-0 6 0-0 d6 7 Nc3 Qe8 8 d5

Avatar of BirdsDaWord

Well, I do play the b3 lines in the Bird, but the Classical setup is a lot better than you might think.  I do well with it, but thinking upon some of the positional setups, I am also venturing back into Polar Bear territory for a time to experiment - here is my reasoning.  

Ghost, that is the main line anyway, so it is the line most Dutch players anticipate.  I think personally that it is better to play otherwise, such as the Re1 lines, for instance.  d5 is very ambitious, but it helps Black deal with his "backward" e-pawn situation, which he is preparing for the push.  I like playing the Staunton against the Dutch personally - it is a very aggravating system when I am playing the Dutch.

Fezzik, very funny :-)  I guess you had no ideas for me lol.  I think I may just have to go swimming in 1. d4 waters for a while and find some things I like.  

Avatar of BirdsDaWord

Simplified, what are your pet lines and why?

One line I know a bit of the initial setups on is the QGA - the trap with e3 b5 a4 c6 axb cxb Qf3 - stuff like that.  But I don't know the ideas behind some of the stuff, and my opponent is better prepared in book lines often.  

Avatar of BirdsDaWord

Fezzik, I found a game where you are playing against a KID with the White pieces.  I will ask a few questions as to your personal choices in the game, if you don't mind.  

Avatar of Atos

This is the Bayonett Attack, which gained popularity because Kramnik was using it.

Avatar of BirdsDaWord

I will look into the games that you posted.  I guess this topic is too broad for 1. d4 players, too many pet lines.  I am just going to go swimming, like I did with 1. f4, and see what I like and don't like.  I did some exploration on the Carlsbad this morning, so I may look into it as a pet line in the QGD.  Thanks Fezzik...

Avatar of Atos

It looks like the lines that "avoid theory" end up having plenty of theory.

Avatar of BirdsDaWord

Anthony, how about a 1. d4 game then?  

Avatar of BirdsDaWord

Okay, thanks to those who helped me find some ideas, I did decide on one that I think fits what I originally asked for - the Carlsbad variation.  I remember Kasparov on his Queen's Gambit series discussing this idea, and he said it favored White.  I, at the time, was not really ready to try any 1. d4 ideas, still trying to learn 1. f4, but I like to see other things, you know.  Here is the premise for the Carlsbad (as I understand at the moment). 

So, I tried the idea earlier in a quick game, and I liked the results! I took some of my Bird's opening ideas (f4-Qf3-g4-etc.) into the middlegame and came out with a nice win.  Here it is - any ideas would be appreciated. 

I thought this win, for most parts, was fluid -the ideas seemed to flow like water - that is the way I enjoy chess.  Except for allowing the queen trade, in general I felt that White had good control of the board.  Any ideas?
Avatar of BirdsDaWord

Fezzik, thank you for that lead on Bg5 - I will do some research on it.  

Avatar of Starman_Skullz

F4 is Birds Opening? I forgot.

Avatar of BirdsDaWord

Correct!

Avatar of BigTy

I am also trying to learn a 1.d4 attacking repertoire. Here is a basic outline of what I play, some lines are still undecided. Take caution though, as the theoretical load is pretty heavy...

QGA: 3.e4 - this is how this opening is meant to be played, take the center, take the initiative, don't worry about the pawn.

QGD: Exchange variation with Ne2, f3, and eventually e4. See Kasparov's games.

Semi-Slav: 5.Bg5, mainline Botvinnik and Anti-Moscow gambit. Great fun, great attacking possibilities.

Slav (4...dxc4). Mainlines after 5.a4. Going for positional edge and/or attacking chances here.

Chebanenko Slav: 5.c5. This tries to exploit the weakened b6 square and gains space.

Tarrasch: Mainline with g3. The best set-up against an IQP.

Albin: Accept and play Nf3, followed by a3. I don't know much about this line but it looks good. g3 set-ups are also good.

KID: Either Bayonette (9.b4), or Classical (9.Ne1) if you would like an attacking race. Both are good, but theoretical. I am not sure which one I want to play yet.

Gruenfeld: Exchange variation with 8.Rb1.

Nimzo: 4.Qc2 - Often black gets an initiative here, but the long term prospects of having two bishops and more space without doubled pawns makes this quite appealing. There are some lines where white can attack too.

Dutch: Mainline kingside fianchetto set-ups all around. I am not sure specifically which lines I want to play yet though.

Modern Benoni: Flick Knife attack (Taimanov variation). Enough said.

Benko: Accept and kinside fianchetto seems to be critical, but probably not an attacking set-up. I haven't looked much at this opening yet.

Everything else is still to be decided.

I will end by quoting Fezzik here: "Chess rewards the aggressive player."

Avatar of BirdsDaWord

Against the Dutch, I would recommend the Staunton Gambit.  I actively play the Dutch, and that is the most annoying line for me to face, as it gives White a lot of space.  Not the end of the world - I don't hate to play against it, but nothing else really tests it as much as lines like the Staunton, or even the Korchnoi Gambit with 1. d4 f5 2. h3 Nf6 3. g4!? sacking a pawn for constant pressure. 

Avatar of BigTy
BirdBrain wrote:

Against the Dutch, I would recommend the Staunton Gambit.  I actively play the Dutch, and that is the most annoying line for me to face, as it gives White a lot of space.  Not the end of the world - I don't hate to play against it, but nothing else really tests it as much as lines like the Staunton, or even the Korchnoi Gambit with 1. d4 f5 2. h3 Nf6 3. g4!? sacking a pawn for constant pressure. 


I actively play the dutch as well. I see the Staunton very often in blitz and I almost always get an advantage against it as black and win, unless my opponent is much stronger. White is fighting for equality in that opening.

The Korchnoi line is annoying but if you just ignore the pawn with 3...d5! you will get a good position. White weakens his kingside needlessly while black just develops.

I wouldn't recommend either of the lines you mentioned in a serious repertoire. Good alternatives to the mainline dutch as white are 2.Bg5 and 2.Nc3, but even here I think black is doing well. Kindermann recommends some very good defences against all of the above mentioned lines in his book: Leningrad System.

So we can agree to disagree I guess :P.

Avatar of BigTy
AnthonyCG wrote:

Don't forget to add something against the queen's indian.


If you allow the Nimzo then you don't need anything for the QID. After 3.Nc3 b6?! white just plays 4.e4 and is better.

Avatar of gwnn

I learned f4 from Tim Taylor's book but gave it up because

(i) I got bored by playing the same positions all the time
(ii) I found that even unprepared opposition could get comfortable positions as Black.

I play d4 now and like it much more, the diversity is just so much bigger here and usually I can get an opening advantage against most opponents I meet. I follow John Cox's repertoire mostly, but maybe I will play the Samisch instead against the KID. You would like it if you like f4 and KS pawnstorms - you will often be able play g4 h4 g5 etc.

The QGD exchange or Carlsbad is a very comfortable variation for White. So far as I have seen, you get to decide when you break and how you break and Black will have to work very hard to generate any counterplay.