French defense (Tarrasch) - Chess Forums - Page 2

TwoMove

Mar 21, 2015

0

#21

Well they are being somewhat dogmatic, personally find it hard to gain active counterplay against it. In the 4Nf3 line, which think is perfectly good, play can play 4...Nf6 5e5 Nd7 transposing to the Korchnoi gambit. Black has some possibilties based on knight being on f3. Black can also play 4...c5xd4 5Nxd4 Nc6 which is a sicilian type, or sometimes direct transposition to Paulsen sicilian. So for me 4pxp is more of a problem because black's position after 4...pxp or 4...Qxp are kind of dull, some of the positions black can hope to reach are more drawish than equal.

X_PLAYER_J_X

Mar 21, 2015

0

#22

TwoMove wrote:

Well they are being somewhat dogmatic, personally find it hard to gain active counterplay against it. In the 4Nf3 line, which think is perfectly good, play can play 4...Nf6 5e5 Nd7 transposing to the Korchnoi gambit. Black has some possibilties based on knight being on f3. Black can also play 4...c5xd4 5Nxd4 Nc6 which is a sicilian type, or sometimes direct transposition to Paulsen sicilian. So for me 4pxp is more of a problem because black's position after 4...pxp or 4...Qxp are kind of dull, some of the positions black can hope to reach are more drawish than equal.

Very interesting observation 2move. Yeah I was wondering myself why they released the tension. I suppose 4...exd5 does limit some of blacks options.

Yeah very interesting for sure.

TwoMove

Mar 22, 2015

0

#23

Nowdays it is rare for black to immediately win the pawn. When a player like Korchnoi sacs, there was always likely to be a lot of concrete compensation. Instead playing on the Nf3 with moves like g5. The positions are more unbalanced than the "universal" line with Bd3, Ne2 very popular with white club players.

Saying that would likely play 4...c5xd4 because think 5Nxp Nc6 more comfortably equal. White doesn't lose anything because can still play 5e4xd5 when black is more or less commited to 5...Qxd5 line.

greenibex

Nov 18, 2016

0

#24

The French Defense chess opening is good for surprise value. The main reason why chess GMs do not use it regularly because black gets a passive middlegame.

Also i would not trust a chess opening having anything to do with France. Everyone knows that chess is a military game. Looking back at history, the French military was really passive

For example, in World war One, France was conquered by their neighbor Germany. Did they learn their lesson? Of course not. A couple years later France was conquered again in World War 2. Who took them over? Not other then the same country Germany. It was up to the Amencans to save their French croissants from the Germans.

Against 1. e4, I would suggest playing a more sophisticated chess opening that is American made. It won't let you down like the French. Maybe something like the Marshall Attack variation of the Ruy lopez. It has been shown to equalize easily. Magnus just played it against Karjackin.

There are a lot of things that France has "stolen" but claimed to be their own. Such as the Mona Lisa, the French bulldog, French toast, French horn, French letters, French Fries, French press, French dressing, French manicure, French braid, etc.

I would not be surprised if France "stole" this chess opening as well when in fact, it really had a "Made in Taiwan" label and some French dude ripped it off.

Here is an oxymoron: French Army

Loch-and-Quay

Jun 17, 2019

0

#25

ThrillerFan wrote:

In response to post 2, the comment afer 5...Nf6 of "An White stands well" is inaccurate. "And Black stands well" is more like it.

The average score in chess is 54% for White. The French as a whole scores about 55.25% for White.

After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2?! (3.Nc3 is strongest, 3.e5 next. All other moves get White equality at best - proof is below) 3...c5! 4.exd5 exd5 5.Ngf3 Nf6! (Far stronger than the old 5...Nc6 which gives Black a miserable game where he has nothing more to fight for than a draw) 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.Bxd7+ Nxd7 8.O-O Be7 9.dxc5 Nxc5 10.Nb3 Nce4!, White has a miserable 50.7% score across 288 games.

Compare this to lines like:

3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 (White's strongest move) - This position scores 56.4% across 3353 games.

3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 and now:

5...Qb6 6.a3! scores 54.15% across 2397 games.
5...Bd7 6.Be2! scores 54.3% across 1447 games.

Sveshnikov has been a live-long e4 player, and even he acknowledges that the Tarrasch is a mistake for White and gets White nada!

Note that all of these are based on large, valid sample sizes (a valid sample is defined as 30 or more in statistics). The 288 is a little lower than the other samples because it wasn't long ago that it was discovered that 5...Nf6 was truly that much stronger than 5...Nc6. It was originally thought to be merely a matter of taste.

I know where you're coming from but giving 3.Nd2 a dubious (?!) sign has just made me laugh.

I'm definitely an advocate of the Tarrasch, particularly with the aggressive f4 approach. But it does seem to be unusual in that you can often play the other knight to e2 and then switch them to the regular squares c3 and f3 later on. I don't think any other serious openings allow time for such apparently, "inefficient" manoeuvring of the pieces.

CorytheBest123

Jun 17, 2019

0

#26

Salut! Bon article... Je l'ai beaucoup aime!

NL008

Jun 17, 2019

0

#27

vcvcvcv

Godelastreet

Feb 8, 2020

0

#28

I'm french

Uhohspaghettio1

Feb 8, 2020

0

#29

Please create your own threads and do not bump old ones.

Laskersnephew

Feb 8, 2020

0

#30

Absolutely nothing wrong with 3...c5. I think the OP's evaluation of the position after 3...Nf6 4,e5 Ngd7 5.f4 is superficial and inaccurate, but 3...c5 is fine too

OldPatzerMike

Feb 8, 2020

0

#31

Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:

Please create your own threads and do not bump old ones.

I'm curious as to why you would say that. This thread had some great information that would not have been brought to current members' attention if the "bumper" had created his own thread. He did a good thing for us, no? Some old threads deserve to remain buried, but not ones like this.

Laskersnephew

Feb 8, 2020

0

#32

Feel free to bump old threads

neveraskmeforadraw

Feb 9, 2020

0

#33

I had a good laugh when I saw 3.Nd2?! in one of the previous posts. A perfectly reasonable, and well established move, both in theory and practice, marked as dubious by some random amateur. There are so many opinionated people in the chess forums it's not even funny anymore.

Uhohspaghettio1

Apr 8, 2020

0

#34

OldPatzerMike wrote:

Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:

Please create your own threads and do not bump old ones.

I'm curious as to why you would say that. This thread had some great information that would not have been brought to current members' attention if the "bumper" had created his own thread. He did a good thing for us, no? Some old threads deserve to remain buried, but not ones like this.

No.

I don't know why you assume the old thread couldn't be linked. There is no reason why useful information in the thread wouldn't have been brought to light. The OP could easily have linked the thread if he found it worth it to. That way it is clear that this is a really old thread. If there was useful information in this thread he could have linked it without any problems.

I do not believe it's natural or appropriate to bring up conversations and dialogue from many years ago. People die, people change a lot over the years.

When you're reading a thread it seems like a poster is saying things right now, it's jarring and like I say unnatural to be reading posts from many years ago in the same time you're reading them from just now. Leave the past in the past.

Really it's a bad idea. That is why.

Laskersnephew

Apr 8, 2020

0

#35

"There are so many opinionated people in the chess forums it's not even funny anymore."

It's still pretty funny when a 1200 player "refutes" a mainline opening.

On the subject of bumping threads, go ahead! It's fine. Many people have evolved to the point where they can read the dates on posts.

markkoso

Apr 8, 2020

0

#36

Databases don't lie. Though being able to read them is a skill.

NM FizzyBand

Apr 8, 2020

0

#37

In my opinion Nd2 is not bad, but Nc3 is stronger. c5 practically gives black equality, and destroys the central grip white gets in most Frenches.

neveraskmeforadraw

Apr 29, 2020

0

#38

ThrillerFan wrote:

In response to post 2, the comment afer 5...Nf6 of "An White stands well" is inaccurate. "And Black stands well" is more like it.

The average score in chess is 54% for White. The French as a whole scores about 55.25% for White.

After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2?! (3.Nc3 is strongest, 3.e5 next. All other moves get White equality at best - proof is below) 3...c5! 4.exd5 exd5 5.Ngf3 Nf6! (Far stronger than the old 5...Nc6 which gives Black a miserable game where he has nothing more to fight for than a draw) 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.Bxd7+ Nxd7 8.O-O Be7 9.dxc5 Nxc5 10.Nb3 Nce4!, White has a miserable 50.7% score across 288 games.

Compare this to lines like:

3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 (White's strongest move) - This position scores 56.4% across 3353 games.

3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 and now:

5...Qb6 6.a3! scores 54.15% across 2397 games.
5...Bd7 6.Be2! scores 54.3% across 1447 games.

Sveshnikov has been a live-long e4 player, and even he acknowledges that the Tarrasch is a mistake for White and gets White nada!

Note that all of these are based on large, valid sample sizes (a valid sample is defined as 30 or more in statistics). The 288 is a little lower than the other samples because it wasn't long ago that it was discovered that 5...Nf6 was truly that much stronger than 5...Nc6. It was originally thought to be merely a matter of taste.

Since you like statistics I did the same with your french tarrasch games here on chess.com ( a sample size of 92 games in total ), and you have at least a slightly negative score in each and every line you have played after 3.Nd2, so things are obviously not that simple. You ( or anyone else, for that matter ) can go to openingtree.com and see all your games with all the basic stats there.