Has the Berlin completely neutralized 1. e4?

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TheSlyHunter

What is the latest Berlin theory?

Ok, after:

So can white find an advantage? Or are the days of 1. e4 over?

InfiniteFlash

Unless you are Kramnik then no....black suffers from a somewhat serious space disadvantage, and you pretty much have to understand the defense entirely. Kramnik is an automatic draw with the berlin. I remember Kramnik only using 20 minutes or so for the first 22 moves in his game against grischuk at the candidates tournament....grischuk used over an hour and a half. Very deep opening prep.

Besides, more players these days are playing the d3 stuff as white not allowing Nxe4 and the berlin, and getting more interesting play.....it gets similiar to the italian game actually, very static positions.

DrSpudnik

That end position doesn't look like what I think it should look like.

falcogrine

I have no clue about recent Ruy Lopez theory, but I consider the Sicilian Dragon to be black's best try for a win. As black, I believe that your goal should not be to equalize, but to press for an advantage.

SmyslovFan

The Berlin endgame is won by the better player most of the time. Below ~2000 (FIDE) strength, you don't need to worry about it. Above 2000 strength, you should either know how to play against it or how to avoid it.

But it's hardly an example of a drawish line.

daniel2852
falcogrine wrote:

I have no clue about recent Ruy Lopez theory, but I consider the Sicilian Dragon to be black's best try for a win. As black, I believe that your goal should not be to equalize, but to press for an advantage.

This, I think Sicilian is the best advantage for black. 

Ruy Lopez is seen as more of a favorable position for white.  

Tricklev

Kramnik has a minus score on the black side of the Berlin, that really should end the discussion.

DrSpudnik
Tricklev wrote:

Kramnik has a minus score on the black side of the Berlin, that really should end the discussion.

One would think. But not around here.

Fear_ItseIf
Tricklev wrote:

Kramnik has a minus score on the black side of the Berlin, that really should end the discussion.

maybe less wins than losses, but surely the ammount of draws outways the losses considerably. After all he does use it as a drawing weapon, doesnt he?

SmyslovFan
Tricklev wrote:

Kramnik has a minus score on the black side of the Berlin, that really should end the discussion.

According to my statistics, which are almost certainly not complete, Kramnik as Black has a plus score using the Berlin. That includes his most recent win last month. That is, he has 18 wins, 16 losses out of 72 games.

But even if he had a slight negative score, consider who his opponents have been! He played it repeatedly against Kasparov, he's played it against computers, world champions, and most recently, he won against Grischuk as Black. 

How many elite players win more than they lose as Black against top-flight opponents?

TheSlyHunter

Waiting for IM Pfren's reply....... hahaha

SmyslovFan

I just checked chessgames.com's statistics. According to their game collection, Kramnik has scored 16 wins, 16 losses out of 73 games played at various time controls. My own database doesn't include the same blitz games chessgames.com has. 

Regarding the latest theory, this is the latest game that Kramnik played:



Schevenadorf

People are so scared of the Berlin, yet the endgame is pretty easy for white to play. Just develop your pieces, find a good square for the dark squared bishop, double and the d-file and try to push the kingside majority. Of course it's not full-proof, but black's position seems to be tougher to play unless you are Kramnik or perhaps Carlsen.

Vandarringa

I guess I never realized that at the master level, 1. e5 e5 leads to 2. Nf3 nearly 90% of the time.  But it's only the Ruy Lopez that is neutralized by black, assuming the Berlin is so effective.  Alternately, on move 2 white can play the Vienna Game, the King's Gambit, or the Bishop's opening, and even after 2. Nf3 Nc6 white can play the Italian or the Scotch on move 3.  And these are just the aggressive options.  I don't follow the top levels all that much, but my guess is that 1.e4 is not going anywhere, at least not just because of a particular variation in a particular opening.

DrSpudnik

+1

Conquistador

If the Berlin is not considered a neutralizer, then the Marshall Gambit certainly can be a good candidate.  But this assumes that at the top level you are looking for a draw.  If you want to win, there are certainly many different ways to go about it within the Ruy Lopez, or to forgo this entirely and enter the Sicilian.

moonnie

The berlin endgame is by no means a forced draw. In fact it is one of the most complex endgames in current theory. Both sides have many different advantages and disadvantages knowing how to deal with that and how to capitalize on your opponents mistakes requires a deep positional understanding. The person who understand the position best generally wins. Specialy under 2400.

@Schevendorf: No black player will allow you to double on the d-file uncontested and will either exchange 1 pair of rooks or will get another consession (On Rd2 black can for example often play Bb4 trying to exchange his darksquared bishop for a knight a small victory for black in the berlin)

Next to that it is very hard for white to get his pawn majority past g4 because that is where black will put his blockade with moves likes h5 and Be6.

kikvors

As long as the world's top rated player still uses 1.e4 as his main weapon, I don't think there is much reason to panic.

moonnie

He avoids it against Kramnik though

DrSpudnik

Then I'll have to keep that in mind in case I ever face him.