How do you play the K.I.D. when White plays e3 instead of e4?

WTF are you trying to get to!  I'm cutting to the chase and not dealing with your bullsh**!

READ POST 5 COMPLETELY

READ POST 10 COMPLETELY

ALL THE GD FOOL DOES IS CITE THAT I AM WRONG AND THEN HE PROCEEDS TO RECOMMEND THE EXACT SAME THING I DID - AN EARLY c5!

pfren IS DONALD TRUMP IN DISGUISE!!!

Opening's are suceptible to what's in vogue, for instance, the Berlin Defense rose up to popularity after Krammik used it to defend against Kasparov in the 2000 WCC.

That's why he especifically said position.

Are you sure everything's right at home?

And that's still not statistical analysis not to mention the relative amount of times an opening is played is not very relevant, popularity != good.

Look, Fool!

All I know is that post 5 is accurate, post 10 is plagerism, and if the OP is happy with Post 5, Great, and if not, so be it.

I'm done dealing with you and pfren being stupid!

"All I know is that I'm right and everybody who disagrees with me is wrong and plagiarizes me."

Who's the moron here? The "L" word has got nothing to do with your posts. It was directed to somebody else dipsh*t.

Well if c5 scores so great... maybe we should forget about the Orthodox e5 break... which experts swear by... and play a KID benoni, huh?

Btw... no point hurling abuse at @pfren... I strongly suspect he leaves a sharp insult, and ignores any reply.

ThrillerFan you are totally wrong.

Try explaining how playing at some point c5 and/or with a later d5 is an improved form of anything for black - go. It must be a clearly improved version for black - transposing into a benoni-type defence, is hardly a great prospect for black such that you can say 4. e3 is a mistake and black has no problems, especially if you didn't prepare for it and may not even know it.  

Explain how that's going to work and we can all look and say yes, black is about equal or better here and white is getting punished for his passivity.  

And you can't say the L word. Because they're getting a little close for comfort, hmm?

Jesus Christ YOU CAN'T READ!

NOWHERE do I say 4.e3 is a mistake!

First thing I said is that it is far rarer than the more common 4.Nf3 with 5.Bg5 OR 5.Bf4 with e3 to follow!

I point out how to play against 4.Nf3/5.Bg5, and point out that Black equalizes via immediate pressure on the center.  Early ...c5 and if White does not advance, then take and ...d5 with equality.

I then point out that 4.e3 is even more passive.  READ!  PASSIVE!  SPELT P - A - S - S - I - V - E!  NOT M - I - S - T - A - K - E!

And 4.e3 is not only more passive, but also more committal!  After 4.Nf3 and 5.Bg5, when Black presses with ...c5, White has a choice.  6.d5 or 6.e3.  With e3 already played, the d5-lines would be a mistake as White will get nothing if he never plays e4 in that line, which is a loss of tempo compared to not playing the early e3.  Therefore, he is committed to allowing the trade and ...d5.

The whole point initially was the OP was asking about how Black gets in ...e5 like the main line KID and the answer is you don't!  You play ...c5, and then it depends on White's choice whether it plays like a Benoni or he gives you the center with ...d5, NOT ...e5.

So instead of sounding like a schmuck by claiming I said something that I never said, try learning how to read!  May I recommend you start with a book on the alphabet!

A - Apple (apple picture here) - flip page

B - Boy (picture of a boy) - flip page

C - Cat (picture of a cat)

...

You didn't just say White is passive. You said: "If it is, White's position is so passive that Black should have no problems.". 

You later went onto suggest c5 and d5 will summarily destroy white's centre without a problem. 

I'm not on the attack, I'm just making a simple request - show lines where c5 and/or d5 is played. I think it's a reasonable request that you would show how this could occur.  

You are well-aware at your rating level that c5 is a very important and delicate move and if you get it in you are usually doing well, same with d5. I am simply enquiring for any way black can prepare for c5? Is he going to go with b6? Na6? How is he black going to get c5 in without doing something stupid? 

Số hard

There is often no need to "prep" c5.  It is simply played.

For example - after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 O-O (as mentioned prior, if White has not played e4 yet, castle first as it has greater flexibility where you might want to play d7-d5 in 1 shot) 5.Bg5 and now, there is no prep move.  5...c5!  White gains nothing by taking on c5, only if White does does Black play ...Na6.

Therefore, better is 6.d5 or 6.e3.  After the latter, a simple trade on d4 followed by 7...d5 is equal.

After 6.d5, which is more challenging for Black, he can play in either Benoni or Benko type fashion.  White might have a slight edge here.

With 4.e3 (instead of 4.Nf3/5.Bg5), life is easier for Black.  Again 4...O-O and now what?  5.Nf3?  If so, 5...c5!  Now, a slow move like 6.Be2, again Black trades and ...d5, this time with no pressure by White on Black's center (especially the light squares - with Bg5, taking on f6 is always looming, which covers central light squares e4 and d5).

Here, 6.d5 instead is also playable, but with e2-e3 already played, a simple ...d6 followed by ...e6 gives Black a good version of the Benoni as White will not get far without e3-e4 eventually, even if it is 10 moves later, and it still takes White 2 moves to play it instead of 1 had he held back on the e-pawn like in the more common 4.Nf3/5.Bg5 line.

The lack of pressure on Black's center and the extra move wasted in White's strongest line, playing d5 in response to ...c5, since he won't get far without e3-e4 in that line is why Black has no real problems.  I never said Black has a refutation.  Black simply has no problems equalizing.  Your quoted statement by me, that is what that means.  Remember, Black goes second.  His first job is to equalize the position!  Only then can he think about trying to win.  So when any source says "and Black has no problems", they mean equalizing, not winning.

You do not need to play ...b6 or ...Na6 or ...d6 in order to play ...c5, just like how 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 is played, no prep move for ...c5 there either!

Okay. You said an early c5, not immediate. 

I'm not sure why you're talking about lines without e3 or e4 as that's not what we're talking about. Frankly I doubt black's best option is to play into a benoni or I'm sure most people playing against the KID would take it. 

I agree white should play d5 in response to c5. You say "he won't get far without e3-e4". But he can attack and develop in several ways while being very safe and maybe later e4 if needs be. He leaves the diagonal open for his light squared bishop and queen. He can also place his c3 knight there on e4 putting pressure on the f6 knight that you want to attack. His dark squared bishop is already performing a critical job on its original square holding the b2 pawn up. White's pawn on e4 often becomes a weakpoint in regular king's indian/benoni structures with all kinds of tactical things going on, meanwhile e3 leaves things super stable. Another valid idea is to play e3 then later f3 then at the opportune time e4 - in no way is this a waste of time if done properly. You seem to have no problem playing d6 or e6 as black when it suits yet white would allow equality doing the same? White already has c4 and d5. All these things are why e3 systems exist and are still a valid way to play here that don't give equality at all.  

If you think of it in terms of controlling squares at e3 white's pawn controls d4 and f4, while at e4 it doesn't really control anything - the d5 pawn is in no need of protection by a pawn since it can no longer be attacked by pawn. The only advantage to being on e4 I can see is so it can go to e5 more quickly.  

Someone might get a stroke here.

@pfren, isn't 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.e3 0-0 5.Be2 d6 6.Nc3 Nbd7 intending ...e5 quite playable for Black?

To answer your question about why lines without e3 or e4, those lines I mention DO feature e3 or e4.  I am making the specific point that if White plays 4.e3, which is rare compared to other lines FEATURING e3, LIKE 4.Nf3 O-O 5.Bg5 c5 6.e3.  The topic is on e3 in general, and he gave "4.e3" as an "Example", but the TOPIC is e3 instead of e4 as a whole, and I was pointing out that you will rarely see 4.e3 comparatively speaking to other lines that feature e3 instead of e4, SUCH AS 4.Nf3 and 5.Bg5.

If you don't understand the point, you never will and are clearly not advanced enough to speak chess at a 2000 level.

The whole point is that if White commits too soon to e3, Black can take advantage of the fact that all lines are equal after 4.e3, whereas with delaying e3 (but note that e4 is also not played yet, so there is no ...Nxe4 trick - see original post), it is not as easy.  It's called educating the author of the original post why playing e3 TOO SOON can be bad for White.  If Black is fully equal by move 4, that is BAD for White in my book.  White goes first - he should have a slight advantage over Black!

As far as your final paragraph, yes, delaying e4 leaves the LIGHT Squared Bishop open, but what about the DARK Squared one?  He's going to have to move e4 eventually and it becomes a wasted move for White.

This all the more explains WHY White should play 4.Nf3 and either 5.Bg5 or 5.Bf4 BEFORE playing e3, and if he doesn't do that, Black has easy equality!  With the Dark squared Bishop outside the pawn chain, before e3 is played, there may never be a need for e3-e4 by White, and often the e3-pawn ends up on d4 after a trade of pawns by Black!

You basically should have answered your own question with your response why 4.e3 is inferior to getting the Bishop out first before playing e3, such as 4.Nf3 O-O 5.Bg5, INTENDING 6.e3, and here 5...c5 is the way to go, where the only way White can get a slight advantage is to go the Benoni route.  If he is insistent on e3, then 6.e3 cxd4 7.exd4 d5 is equal.

And as far as the Bishop holding the b2 pawn - if that is what you are doing with the Bishop, you are basically telling your a1-Rook that he will never see the light of day as he will be blocked for ever by the Bishop!

So while some of your arguments, like having e4 available for the Knight, might be legitimate, they give White no advantage if you don't get that Dark-Squared Bishop out from behind the pawn chain first!

So long story short, if White goes for e3-lines:

A) If e3 is played on move 4, White has nothing.  4...O-O and 5...c5 in the majority of cases (i.e. obviously not if 5.c5, but that move is stupid and Black is better in other ways) and Black is fully equal already.  Not winning - simply equal, which is fully satisfactory for Black on move 5!

B) If White gets the Bishop out first, maintaining flexibility with the e-pawn, which may still go to e3, then again, Black should not play for ...e5, but rather, once again, ...c5, and White gets a tiny edge if he goes into the Benoni lines, and merely an equal position if he plays 6.e3, though Black in this case must act accordingly, playing 6...cxd4 and 7...d5, not going for the stereotyped move ...d6, claiming "But I am a King's Indian player".

C) If Black looks to force the issue with ...e5, playing moves like ...Re8, then White is usually better in the e3-lines.  Black should not take this route if White goes for e3.

That is correct. It just means black needs to prepare e5 a bit more before actually getting it in.