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Avatar of ThrillerFan
Fiveofswords wrote:
Elubas wrote:
Fiveofswords wrote:

anyway it amuses me (and actually now i will talk down to you) that you stated that there can be tactics in closed position which involve a piece sacrifice to force the position open. I think its true comedy how you said that. Im not sure you understand whats funny about it...but maybe if you think about it you will see how it proves my point.

Well that does happen sometimes. If one side is way behind in development in a closed position and the other side has all their pieces out, you can often sac a piece for two pawns or something and get inside their position.

I might have missed whatever joke there was here haha, but anyway that does happen.

right...well you have to. you have to sacrifice something to open the position. on the other hand if the position was already open then you already won the game :p

OMG - another stupid, inaccurate comment by FoS.  Take the post I put minutes before this one.  Just because the c-, d-, and e-files are closed doesn't mean a sacrifice is "necessary".  White can still rip thru the f-, g-, and h-files, a section of the board typically abandoned by Black in that line as he castles queenside in most cases and tries to attack thru the hole on b3.

So no, you don't "have to" sacrifice to break thru!

Avatar of ThrillerFan
Fiveofswords wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
Fiveofswords wrote:

anyway it amuses me (and actually now i will talk down to you) that you stated that there can be tactics in closed position which involve a piece sacrifice to force the position open. I think its true comedy how you said that. Im not sure you understand whats funny about it...but maybe if you think about it you will see how it proves my point.

Uhm - I have no clue what on earth you are talkinga bout, or how you think it's comedy.

Last time I looked, White pawns on c3, d4, and e5, with Black pawns on c4, d5, and e6 would be classified as closed, even outright "blocked".  This of course can come via 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.a3 c4 - one of my favorite opening lines to play from the White side with "near perfect" results.

All it takes is a Knight or Bishop sac on c4 or a Knight sac on d5 to rip the whole position open in specific cases where there is a tactical combination available to White, usually due to a subtle error by Black.

So no, there is nothing "funny" about it.  It's just a simple fact.  I don't know what it is you drink before you post to this site, but apparently it's something at least 100-proof minimum!  The only "point" it proves is how dumb you really are!

i love how you still dont get it even after i explained it to elubas

Especially when one hasn't read your novel yet when the post was made.  I start where I left off the previous time, and go sequentially, not backwards!

And even after reading your novels, there is still no comedy except your stupidity.

For example, and I quote:

"if you really want to avoid tactics as black i would suggest you play the sicilian....then just dont play so ambitiously simply develop slightly faster so there is no chance for white to have some way to force things open decisively."

For starters, sentences start with a capital letter.  Secondly, if you really want to speak literally, the answer is "YOU CAN'T AVOID TACTICS!"  Also, you try to tell me that there are no tactics in the first of the two games from the following post:  http://www.chess.com/forum/view/game-showcase/two-games-from-the-chicago-open

Last time I looked, that's a Sicilian, and it's loaded with Tactics, starting with taking his Knight on c3 - it's what I used to get the position down to a winning Queen and Rook ending.

I also find it completely hilarious that you try to give this spiel in post 36 about how others lump terms together when the whole thing started with you lumping Open and Tactical together in post 7, and how I have constantly stated that no two terms in chess "go together", they are completely independent, and that there are many tactical opportunities in closed positions, and many wide open positions that are positional, or in some cases, dull.

And obviously you haven't seen how I post in response to questions like "how do I force quiet?" or "how to I force a tactical game?", etc., and I continue to tell people that no opening guarantees anything.  You have battles that are very tactical in nature in the Slav (i.e. 5.e4), and you have battles with a lot of manouvering in the Najdorf (i.e. some of the 6.g3 or 6.Be2 lines), and that one player can't force anything (other than White's first move), and that it takes two to determine the nature of a game, not one!

So not only had I not reached your explaination to elubas yet at that point when I posted, but even your own posts to elubas are a complete joke!

Avatar of ThrillerFan
Fiveofswords wrote:

and you are still clinging to what i have already pointed out is a case study logical fallacy. i would grant that this one line of the qha is not exactly what i would call tactical. also its not forced. grats you found a possible line in the qga that isnt tactical. do you want me to provide 10 examples of lines in the sicilian that are not tactical? meanwhile you still seem to be confused about whether 'dull' or 'drawish' should be the same thing or whether that 'tactical' nevessarily precludes 'drawish'. do i need to provide you with a bvnn diagram? cause i dont really know how to do that.

So I just posted that "dull" was probably the wrong word but that "drawish" is very accurate in the line I gave, and you still seem to think that I tie the two words together?  Do you have anything between those two ears?  Somehow I doubt it!

Also, the spiel about tactical games leading to draws at the GM level was yours, not mine, so where the h*ll do you get that I think tactical and drawish go together?  I don't claim for the QGA to be highly tactical in "most" lines.  Sure there are tactical lines in ALL openings.  But I do claim that the QGA is drawish! 

Seriously, what drugs are you on?

Avatar of ThrillerFan

FiveofSwords, you don't even know how to quote or paraphrase people.  You claim I made any statement associated with "pointing out that a closed position can become tactical after it becomes open".

BALONEY!  I NEVER SAID THAT!

What I said was that a Closed Position can be tactical in nature and that tactics are often used to open up the position, NOT that they are tactial AFTER becoming open!

Actually, I've had numerous positions be just the opposite of your "mis-quoting".  Position is closed, I use some tactical combination, often started off by a piece sacrifice, where when all is said and done, and I've likely won my piece back, the end position is open with myself having an extra pawn or two, and a longwinded manouvering game with little to no tactics to be found AFTER it's opened up.  Far more often, it's I have a Bishop and 4 pawns to your Bishop and 2 pawns with an ending that is 40 moves long, but 40 moves ago, my opponent could just as easily have resigned!  But the tactics occured BEFORE it became open, and opened as a RESULT OF THE TACTICS, NOT TACTICAL AFTER OPENING UP!


Time for you to take 4th Grade English!




Avatar of Elubas
Fiveofswords wrote:

well yes exactly. i just dont think people have a good grasp on what these terms mean just vague and ambiguous associations...one of my passions was mathematics and i guess from that direction i automatically try to make words mean something more precise than most people. tactical....decisiveness...imbalance...and even difficult all mean different things to me. while other people i belive lump them all together in a rather unclear way. some of the critical lines of some sicilian positions are affected by some rather difficult tactics...necessarily difficult tactics because white usually has to invest some material in them from the very start. i guess people spend a long time on those specific lines and then decide the opening is tactical...out of respect for their time investment. but in my view thats confusing language especially when many of these tactical lines can be reasonably avoided by both players. for me there are certian positions where my state of mind is analysis of concrete variations...i go here they go here etc etc...which is generally in open games. in other positions im just thinking of long term manouvers and deciding the logical move from a general principles and strategic standpoint..this would be line kid or sicilian positions. naturally if they open up i go into concrete analysis mode but not until then.

Yeah... and I feel like there are so many terms that would benefit from being used/defined more precisely, not just chess terms. Even love for example is a funny term... because we will use it to describe feelings with our family, and feelings with strangers, each of which are actually quite different feelings. They're similar in that they're both desirable, sure, but as far as the internal structure of what's going on in them, they're very different. Really every feeling we have with everyone is distinct from another, and if we wanted to we could make up a new word to describe each one. But instead we have to recycle the same words and so it can make things look more similar than they are, if that makes sense.

Anyway, that's sort of what happens with chess. As you said, there may have been associations of the sicilian with tactics because you could find some weird knight d5 sacrifices or something like that. In reality that's only for specific sicilian variaitions, but since we call those the sicilian all the same, words blend in and instead of saying "there are lots of tactics in this line of the sicilian" we say "there are lots of tactics in the sicilian."

Avatar of Charetter115

If you're looking for some crazy double edged super-tactical risky games, try the sicilian dragon and the modern benoni.