Make The Grob Opening Strong?

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Gil-Gandel
KingpinChess wrote:
Gil-Gandel wrote:

Yeah, I don't think putting the Queen on the long diagonal and taking a square away from the Knight is where you want to be going strategically, and chesster's suggestion seems very good for Black since he gets a big lead in development.

but g5 attacks knight followed by b3. You immediately place black on defensive and can keep it the rest of the game if you know what you're doing haha.

If you know what you're doing then you're not playing this pile of shite in the first place haha.

X_PLAYER_J_X

Actually the Grob Opening isn't an opening you should underestimate.

For a long while the below position was considered a deadly trap.

White players would leave the g4 pawn open to be taken willingly in order to do a trap.

They would follow up with the move 3.c4 setting a trap!

If black took on c4 with 3...dxc4 they would lose the b7 pawn because of the White light square bishop.

Which is shown below:

 
Furthermore, the rook on a8 would be lost as well.


If black played a different move like 3...c6 instead of taking on c4.

White would respond with adding extreme pressure! Usually involving some sort of Qb3 move such as below:

Notice how in both cases the queen coming to b3 is the key factor here which does a double attack on d5 and b7!

In fact, this position was considered so uncomfortable that many black players refused to play 2...Bxg4.

They wished to avoid this sort of stuff completely.

Instead they played other moves at move 2.

Not so long ago GM's were trying out different lines in this 2...Bxg4 variation.

I don't know why, but they did.

They than tryed the move 3...d4.

Which at first doesn't seem that bad.

However, It does set up some deadly counter traps of its own believe it or not!

For example:

Now at first glance you might not see it.

However, if you look carefully the idea the black players had was in connection with the bishop on g4!

You could image a situation were the D pawn gets to d3 at a very awkward time.

If it did get to d3 than the white d2 pawn would be pinned!

Since the black bishop on g4 would attack the white queen!

I remember a game which had the follow moves.

In fact, the below game had almost the same moves as Pfren example on post #30 with one huge difference!

The player playing white didn't play 6.f3!

They played the normal looking move 6.Nf3.

White ended up losing this game.

I will not show the whole game because I can't remember it all.

However, I do remember the kool part of when the deadly move d3 came in!

Black than went on to win the game.

If you count the material.

Both sides have 6 pawns.

White has 1 rook

In exchange

Black has 2 minor pieces

Black eventually converted the material advantage to win the game.

And now you know why they play 6.f3!

Tongue Out

White went from being the Hunter.

Into becoming the Hunted!

Becareful when you set traps.

You might end up falling into your own trap!

SilentKnighte5

Wow thanks for that line X_TLDR_OMGWTFBBQ_PLAYER_X, I've never ever seen that before, especially not two posts before yours.

poucin

X_Players is just discrediting himself once again...

Anyway, he made a contribution on Nf3 instead of f3, we can thank him for that.

KingpinChess
YuriSenkevich wrote:
pfren wrote:
YuriSenkevich wrote:

 

Too deep for me to understand it, could you please explain to me why is he positionally lost? 

- Lacking in development if he takes the pawn back (b7), and with a queen which will lose more time to avoid nasty surprises.

- King with no safe place to castle.

- Pawn structure permanently crippled.

- Black's position has no weaknesses at all

- Black has much better control of the center.

 

Aren't these enough for you?

 

Thanks or the answer pfren. I think I respect too much the word "positional" and think of very deep things or characteristics in the position when I see the word.

 

Yep, those are enough advantages, I should stop worrying about pawns, specially when Im getting the king. If White takes the b pawn then we have an open b file for a queenside castle. And well, he has an open g file for his kingside castling lol.

Lasker says that pawn development is a waste of time in the opening. He basically advocates developing all of one's powerful pieces to control the center, along with the e and d pawns. Lasker was a great chess player and I have utilized this theory to win some games. I like his book Chess Strategy.

KingpinChess
pfren wrote:

X_NOBODY_X, the greatest chess philosopher:

"The Grob is a bad opening, because if it wasn't then it would be a good opening".

So much chess wisdom wasted? It's a pity, chess dot com should generously pay him to contribute the site with such deep theoretical articles...

Funny how you ignored all of the rest of what he said to single out one line.

I never said The Grob was great lol I said I thought I found a way to make it strong. Somehow some people think The Grob is good lol

X_PLAYER_J_X
SilentKnighte5 wrote:

Wow thanks for that line X_TLDR_OMGWTFBBQ_PLAYER_X, I've never ever seen that before, especially not two posts before yours.

Don't compare what I said on post #32 to what Pfren said on post #30.

Pfren offered no explaination to any of the moves in his diagram.

Rattling off nothing, but a name!

Pfren post was filled with nothing more than Chess Database moves which any 1,000 ranked player can copy and post into a diagram.

My post 32 had explaination so that people could understand the "WHY".

X_PLAYER_J_X
pfren wrote:

X_NOBODY_X, the greatest chess philosopher:

"The Grob is a bad opening, because if it wasn't then it would be a good opening".

So much chess wisdom wasted? It's a pity, chess dot com should generously pay him to contribute the site with such deep theoretical articles...

Yes! the Grob opening is considered bad.

However, it shouldn't be underestimated.

Gil-Gandel
KingpinChess wrote:
YuriSenkevich wrote:
pfren wrote:
YuriSenkevich wrote:

 

Too deep for me to understand it, could you please explain to me why is he positionally lost? 

- Lacking in development if he takes the pawn back (b7), and with a queen which will lose more time to avoid nasty surprises.

- King with no safe place to castle.

- Pawn structure permanently crippled.

- Black's position has no weaknesses at all

- Black has much better control of the center.

 

Aren't these enough for you?

 

Thanks or the answer pfren. I think I respect too much the word "positional" and think of very deep things or characteristics in the position when I see the word.

 

Yep, those are enough advantages, I should stop worrying about pawns, specially when Im getting the king. If White takes the b pawn then we have an open b file for a queenside castle. And well, he has an open g file for his kingside castling lol.

Lasker says that pawn development is a waste of time in the opening. He basically advocates developing all of one's powerful pieces to control the center, along with the e and d pawns. Lasker was a great chess player and I have utilized this theory to win some games. I like his book Chess Strategy.

Five weeks off the pace I know, but Chess Strategy was a famous book by Edward Lasker, not to be confused with the far greater Dr Emanuel Lasker. Mind you, Ed. Lasker was remarkable for a number of things, such as still being a strong player in his nineties...!

ThrillerFan

The OP does about an equally good job of making the Grob great again as Donald "D*ck Head" Trump does of making America great again!

 

But hey, if you want to ruin your chess and suck at the game for the rest of your life, then play 1.g4.  Otherwise, play something sounder.  Even 1.b4 is light years stronger than 1.g4??, and of course 1.e4, 1.d4, 1.c4, and 1.Nf3 are all stronger than that!

Robert_New_Alekhine
pfren wrote:

X_NOBODY_X, the greatest chess philosopher:

"The Grob is a bad opening, because if it wasn't then it would be a good opening".

So much chess wisdom wasted? It's a pity, chess dot com should generously pay him to contribute the site with such deep theoretical articles...

If he hadn't clicked enter his posts would be shorter than this one. 

pestebalcanica

I'm awaiting for a new game of Karpov whereby he is beating Topalov in the Dutch in just a couple of moves, eagerly. I'm not a Grob opening fan mind you but claiming that White can't get equal chances for a win, loss or draw is ridiculous.

Ray960

Because going down -0.50 one move into the game as White is just so desirable.

Why didn't I play 1...h5 again?

Gil-Gandel
pestebalcanica wrote:

I'm awaiting for a new game of Karpov whereby he is beating Topalov in the Dutch in just a couple of moves, eagerly. I'm not a Grob opening fan mind you but claiming that White can't get equal chances for a win, loss or draw is ridiculous.

Well, but White has to fight his way back for an equal chance, having voluntarily handicapped himself by playing 1. g4?. It's possible, but you'd think it would take a little sub-optimal play by Black to make it happen.

chesster3145

Let's look at the weaknesses created by 1. g4?

- The f2-pawn can't move.

-The e2-pawn can't move past e3.

-The h-pawn may have to move to h4 to cover that square.

-After 1... e5, d2-d4 isn't possible for a while.

That one move 1. g4?, by weakening f2, fixes your entire pawn structure on the center and kingside.

chesster3145

@pestebalcanica:

White's advantage of +0.2 pawns or whatever doesn't matter if he devalues 5 of them on the first move.

TheBlunderfulPlayer

+1

Robert_New_Alekhine
pfren wrote:
chesster3145 wrote:

-After 1... e5, d2-d4 isn't possible for a while.

Actually Basman has played 1.g3 e5 2.d4 in several occasions.

In bullet? 

pestebalcanica
Ray960 wrote:

Because going down -0.50 one move into the game as White is just so desirable.

Why didn't I play 1...h5 again?

Well, that's good actually, you are a pawn down.

Robhad

4. g5 is infinitely better than 4. Qf3.