Need a positional, quiet and solid answer to the Slav

Hello.

I need the opinions of strong players.

I’m a 1800 Elo player with a very positional, quiet, solid, slow, boring, safe and strategic style of play.

As Black against 1. d4 I play the Slav: against 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 I play 4...dxc4, and against 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 I play 4...Bf5.

As Black against 1. e4 I play the Caro-Kann.

As White I start with 1. Nf3 and I play the Catalan against the QGD, the Symmetrical English against 1...c5, the Fianchetto Variation against the KID.

Currently my repertoire has a few holes. But the number 1 biggest hole is undeniably this one: what to play as White against the Slav and the Semi-Slav?

1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 Nf6 3. c4 c6

It must satisfy as closely as possible these three conditions:

A) It must fit well with the rest of my repertoire. So it would be great if it sometimes transposes into the Catalan or if it at least has some kind of "Catalan feel". Or it would be great if it transposes into the Slav which I also play as Black. It must be well synchronized with the rest of my repertoire.

B) It must tend to lead on average to positions which are extremely solid, quiet, positional, slow, boring, safe and strategic (i.e. positions which are absolutely not sharp and tactical at all).

C) It must be perfectly sound and reliable (i.e. it must not give Black equality too easily), and it must be currently popular and fashionable among Grandmasters. I prefer main lines over minor sidelines because most of my opponents will know my repertoire well (since I play them often), so playing minor sidelines won't have such a big surprise factor.

It might be hard to satisfy perfectly all three of the conditions, but it should satisfy the conditions as closely as possible.

I have already made a lot of research of course. Here is what I believe are my options (in no particular order).

4. g3

Directly going into a Catalan setup against the Slav, so it does fit well with my White repertoire.

But I've heard that it's not very good because Black has not yet played ...e6 so he can develop his light squared Bishop outside his Pawn chain which makes it as powerful as White's Catalan Bishop.

And it's very unpopular at Grandmaster level.

4. Nbd2

With the idea to then Fianchetto our light squared Bishop which would then lead to positions with a Catalan feel.

But it seems like an objectively weak move, because just like for 4. g3 Black's light squared Bishop can be developed outside his Pawn chain which makes it as powerful as White's Catalan Bishop.

And it's also very unpopular at Grandmaster level.

4. e3

The Slow Slav. It's very popular among Grandmasters. And if its name is to be trusted it should be "slow", quiet and positional.

It might be synchronized with my Black repertoire if Black answers 4...Bf5, but if Black instead answers 4...e6 we enter into some kind of Semi-Slav which is outside the scope of my Black repertoire, and same thing if Black answers 4...Bg4 we leave my Black repertoire.

4. Qc2

It is the recommendation in Wojo's Weapons Volume 1.

It seems to be positional and quiet.

It also seems to fit well with the rest of my White repertoire, since if Black answers 4...e6 we get a Catalan. And if Black answers 4...dxc4 the arising positions seem to have some Catalan feel, except that Black can develop his light squared Bishop outside his Pawn chain which makes it as powerful as White's Catalan Bishop. If Black instead answers 4...g6 there seems to be a high probability that we will enter a Queenless middlegame, and I really like Queenless positions.

But it doesn't seem to be an objectively very strong move: it seems that if Black plays 4...dxc4 or 4...g6 Black gets equality relatively easily. Also it's not so popular at Grandmaster level. It seems to only be a minor sideline.

4. Qb3

Same remarks as for 4. Qc2.

I'm not sure if 4. Qc2 or 4. Qb3 would be better. They transpose if Black plays 4...dxc4.

It seems that Black can't play 4...g6 against the move 4. Qb3. And the move 4. Qc2 allows White to play a gambit, 4...dxc4 5. e4, but I'm never going to play this gambit.

So maybe 4. Qb3 is better for me? I don't know.

4. cxd5

The Exchange Slav. It's probably the most "positional, quiet, solid, slow, boring, safe and strategic" opening known to man, right?

I've heard some people say that no player who wants to improve seriously should ever choose this dull and drawish opening... But I've also heard some people say the contrary, and that the saying "the Exchange Slav is such a dead draw" is just a myth and that the draw statistics are skewed because of a lot of pre-arranged draws. I don't know who to believe exactly.

Oh and note that I'm talking about taking the Exchange Slav as my sole and only weapon against the Slav. I would never play anything else. But you might ask: what happens when I'm in a situation where I desperately need to win and my opponent plays the Slav? The answer is simple: this situation will never happen, I will never "desperately need to win". So there's no problem about that - a draw will never be such a bad result for me.

But maybe choosing the Exchange Slav isn't such a great idea because, since I start with 1. Nf3 and not with 1. d4, I won't be able to play it with the usual move order: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. cxd5 cxd5 which also gives White the options of playing 4. Nc3 and 4. Bf4, but I'm not sure if the loss of these two options is really an important problem or not.

4. Nc3

And then Black has three choices:

- Slav Accepted 4...dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 : I also play this as Black, so I would be very comfortable also playing this as White. But which move should I then play: 6. e3 or 6. Nh4 or 6. Ne5 ? The moves 6. e3 and 6. Nh4 seem to be more quiet and positional, but the move 6. Ne5 sometimes seems to lead to positions with some Catalan feel (not sure about that though) and I've heard that 6. Ne5 is seen today as objectively stronger than the other two moves.

- Semi-Slav 4... e6 5. g3 : I don't know if the move 5. g3 is strong or not for White. It's 20 times less popular than either 5. e3 or 5. Bg5, so it's clearly just a minor sideline. It seems that it could transpose into the usual Catalan. But the Knight on c3 might be slightly misplaced. Black's most challenging reply is probably to accept the gambit with 5...dxc4

- Slav Chebanenko 4... a6 : And then I'm not sure, I think I have three possibilities:

* Either 5. g3 directly, which I have no idea if it's good or not. Black has many options and his light squared Bishop can be developed outside his pawn chain.

* Or first 5. a4, and then if Black plays 5...e6 I can play 6. g3 and Black's light squared Bishop will not get outside the Pawn chain and will therefore not be as strong as White's Catalan Bishop. But Black also has two other (less popular) options, 5...g6 and 5...Bf5, against which I would need to find something solid.

* Or just 5. e3 which maybe has no Catalan feel but I've heard that it's very solid and quiet, and it's probably objectively stronger than the two previous options.

And there is one last more radical option: the Reti.

I believe that it's positional and quiet.

But if I pick this option I would need to change my move order: instead of playing 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 I would need to play 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 and then after 2...c6 I suppose I would need to go with 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2

But Black has not yet played ...e6 so he can develop his light squared Bishop outside his Pawn chain which makes it as powerful as White's fianchettoed Bishop.

I don't know if the Reti against the Slav is theoretically strong or not.

Oh and I would need to learn what to do against the advance 2...d4 as well.

So what exactly do you think I should play?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

I have a similar white repertoire to you, and was going to recommend Qc2, I find not many black players meet it very effectively, and often I just get a closed catalan, as they respond with ..e6.

As far as Qb3 goes, I had a brief look at it to avoid some lines, but it seems if black decides here to play ..e6, which a lot of players do in response to Qb3, you can't transpose as favourably to a catalan, as you will probably need to lose a tempo with Qb3-c2. However, maybe im mistaken here, and I would be very interested to know if white has a useful way to make use of the queen on b3 in the semi slav/closed catalan structures.

Actually g3 is getting a more popular in GM practice and it leads to interesting positions. However they are generally very complex positon with both positional and tactical motives. With white you may have to sac a pawn to get compensation. I sometimes play this against weaker players

Personally I mostly play e3 and I am happy with it. There are indeed 5 main systems to combat this and you have to know them

1. .. a6 you should be happy to see this because without the knight on c3 the black .. b5 .. b4 push is not that good. In general white gets a small plus here

2. .. e6 though better then a6 and certainly a main line I am always happy to see this. I play a system with b3 etc and always get a slow positional position with a little push.

3. ..g6  this is an underestimated black system leading to a very small edge for white where he can basicly push for 2 results as black has very little counterplay (but a rock solid position)

4. ..Bf5 this is the main line. It leads to equalish positions where white has the bishop pair and black has some compensation for that. It is nicely off balanced for me because i love the long term bishoppair advantagen 

5. .. Bg4 is kind of the same as Bf5 with some small differces that you do have to know. Also leading to equalish positons where both players can play

In response to the OP:

4.e3 - What does your Black repertoire have to do with anything?  You are White!  4...e6 is simply an option you must deal with!  This is what is recommended by Avrukh in his 2-book repertoire on 1.d4 by Quality Chess.  And by the way, the "Slow" in "Slow Slav" does not mean the game is guaranteed to be slow and positional.  White's development is slow compared to 4.Nc3, similar to how the Classical Nimzo-Indian (4.Qc2) is also known to be "slow" for White.  In both cases, Black gets extra time to play moves like 4...Bf5 in the Slav that would otherwise be dubious if White had played 4.Nc3.

4.Qc2 - Like you said, what is recommended in Wojo's Weapons, but doesn't mean it's best.  Wojo's Weapons is a repertoire book, not a complete work.

4.Nc3 - This of course is the theoretical main line.

Another thing to keep in mind is you can't always force "quiet".  I've played the Black side of a Slav and had a slugfest of tactics.  I've played the Najdorf and had a more positional game than I did with some of my Petroff games.

Pigeon-holing yourself to not playing a certain move during a game because it leads to "too many tactics" is going to park you at 1800 for good!  Sometimes such a move is the only winning move!

Anybody that thinks that they can force quiet with 1.d4 or 1.c4 or 1.Nf3 or can force fireworks with 1.e4 is sorely mistaking!

I believe there isnt a quieter line for white than the exchange slav ... but you give black equality . 

I've had many "loud", tactical games in the Exchange Slav, especially the lines with 6...Bf5

4. e3 is a good way to fight against it!

The answer is SO EASY.  Simply Play a Reversed Slav.

You already know that system COLD.

And, if you really want to bore your opponent to death with your positional technique, play Qb3 in response to most cases of Qb6 by black.

All of this you already know, from your Black repetoire.

End of Story ?

The OP has repeated this thread twice ??  What gives ??

e3, Qc2 or Nc3 are the best options in my opinion, which isn't worth as much as some of the others here.  For your play style, wanting to not make anything too sharp, e3 I think is a good line, especially since you need to get that bishop out eventually anyway.  You could go g3 but playing a queen's gambit, I hate to leave that pawn without someone to retake it, so I'd still go Qc2 before g3 if you really want to fianchetto that bishop.  

After e3 if they play Bg4, then you can do your Nd2  with a planned Qc2 or Be2 to unpin the knight.

It ain't that easy - many defenses rely on commitment by White.

A Dutch player will not have the same success playing Bird's Opening.  In the Dutch, White has committed to 1.d4, weakening e4.  In the Bird, Black hasn't committed to d5, and he could answer 1.f4 with 1...d6.

Needless to say, the Bird only scores 46% for White, which is attrocious!

Same thing goes for many other defenses, so playing a reverse defense is not the answer.

KIA, Reversed Slav (i.e. London), Reversed QID (Larsen's Attack) are all fine for white.

Even Reversed Hippo or Reversed Modern are entirely playable, but tame.

If you want (at least) a level position after 20 move pairs, all of the above opening systems will fit that bill.

If you want more, there's 500 years of opening theory (from the white side) to choose from.  And it keeps evolving.  So knock yourself out.

Opening are largely a matter of personal taste.  

Personally, I prefer to win through "pawn promotion," somewhere between move pairs 40 to 60, or beyond.

Indeed, lots of pitfalls along the way.  But if you hate being "surprised," as does the OP, reversed openings are a pragmatic solution to a very complex problem.

That doesn't mean your opponent can't force you into an open and tactical game, but those "surprises" will surely come later in the opening or middlegame phase.

Afterwards, you can add those "surprises" to your database, if you wish.    

First off, the London is not a reversed Slav:

• White often plays c4 instead of c3
• If White does play c3, he rarely needs to take on c5.  Except against the Slow Slav, Black can rarely get away with playing ...Bf5 without taking on c4 to allieviate the pressure on Black's center

Secondly, add Larsen's Opening to the "Tame" list.  White gets equality at best.  Actually, the highest rated player I ever beat over the board was 2447 and that game I beat him?  The Black side of Larsen's Opening!  And also, the Larsen rarely ends up a Reversed QID as f4 often gets played before the Knight is played (i.e. 1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 is the main line)

Thirdly, anybody that thinks the KID plays like the KIA is nuts.  You don't see Black wrapping that knight round in the KID (i.e. Nb8-d7-f8-h7-g5), but a very common manouver for White is Nb1-d2-f1-h2-g4.  Totally different game - all that's even remotely similar is the first few moves, and playing it pre-meditated is a mistake as Black has committed to nothing.  Part of Black's defensive ideas are reactionary.  White played 1.d4, weakens e4, let's play 1...d5, 1...Nf6, or 1...f5 to control e4.  This is why it is rarely ever played at the GM level except against openings with an early ...e6 (Some of your ...e6 Sicilians and the French).

I agree with everything you said, @Thriller, except your hair-splitting on the meaning of what constitutes a "Reversed Opening."

I typically play black formations from the white side.  I adjust these formations (in a minor way) based on black's responses.  It's simple chess, except for a few opening books devoted to the same.

Consequently, I'm on familiar ground, my opponents typically are not.  I consider that a "slight advantage," against any opponent below USCF 2000.

Simple, pragmatic game plan.  You choice the ground on which you play, and the first move advantage is only that -- "the first move." 

I answered the OP's question, concisely.  He didn't say he wanted to retain white's first move advantage.  QED.

Good Luck with Your Treatise on "reversed openings."

Actually I did say I wanted to keep White's first move advantage:

So the London system or any other reverse defense are out of the question.

No. You don't seem to have read my other thread correctly.

My other thread was about finding a Black defense against 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e3.

This thread is about finding a White opening against 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 Nf6 3. c4 c6.

So these are completely different threads.

Giving Black instant equality is the only thing that is turning me off from the Exchange Slav. If White still had some advantage, even if it was smaller than White's usual advantage, I think I would choose the Exchange Slav.

But then again, don't 4.Qc2, 4.Qb3, 4.g3 and 4.Nbd2 also give Black instant equality?   

I have a similar repertoire to u. I also play caro kann. Against d4 i play stonewall dutch. Against c4 i play c5. I am a d4 catalan player. My slav repertoire is 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd cxd 5.Qc2 Nc6 6.Nf3 and theres more but u get the idea.

Play a "Reversed Slav formation" from the white side, and use the first move to your advantage, in whatever way you see fit.

Or just ask "Skynet."  Sounds like you need his help a lot.

NM @Reb gave you the most concise answer (IF you insist on playing an early c4 from the white side).  So use it or lose it.

You're stuck in an "infinite opening loop," mixing up your black and white repetoires.  It's time to come up for air, Captain Kirk.

Why in the world do you play Standard Chess with average opponents 400 points below you ??  That can't help your game.  Surely you understand that ??

As for what you wrote, read it again below, (and look up the meaning of the word "retain," as well).

Skynet wrote:

You seem to be aggressive @zborg. Chill out.

And I see you've edited your messages many times.

I'm sure your crap reversed openings are very effective at your low level, but I already told you that I will not play them so it's useless to continue to try to sell them to me.

And as for your completely off-topic question, I play rapid games on chess.com just for fun, so I don't care if my opponents are weak. I don't actually consider a 15 minutes game to be a serious game. These days I rarely play on chess.com anyway. And I can assure you that OTB my opponents aren't weak.

Anyway, back to the topic now.

More suggestions on which opening I should choose are welcome.

That is a very good point that you make AzraelA.

Against both 4 e3 e6 and 4. e3 a6 White can take advantage of the fact that he hasn't committed his b1 Knight to c3. So the ...b5 push is not as strong, since White can manoeuvre his Knight to the c5 square more easily and ...b4 wouldn't gain a tempo on a White Knight. White should not play 5. Nc3 and transpose to some normal Semi-Slav or some normal Chebanenko, instead he should play 5. Bd3!

But I'm not sure if this is enough to call 4. e3 e6 "a bad way of trying to get a Semi-Slav" and 4. e3 a6 "harmless", because both of them seem to be played very frequently: against 4. e3, the move 4...e6 is the most popular move for Black, and the move 4...a6 is the third most popular move. So both of these moves seem to be good for Black.

One of the reasons I don't like 4. e3 is that Black has five different possible answers right on move 4: 4...e6, 4...Bf5, 4...a6, 4...Bg4 and 4...g6

While if I chose the Exchange Slav instead, Black will have only three different possible answers, after 4. cxd5 cxd5 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bf4, on move 6: 6...Bf5, 6...a6 and 6...e6

So it's kind of White who dictates the character of the game in the Exchange Slav, but with 4. e3 it is Black who will decide the character of the game.

And add to that the fact that the Exchange Slav is much more "solid, quiet, positional, slow, boring, safe and strategic" than 4. e3.

play the slow slav with e3, then look at all the black replies ( the logical ones) e6, Bf5, a6, and/or g6

After meditating about what to play against the Slav for two months... I've still not made up my mind.

Before I was hesitating between 8 possibilities (see my first post), but now I'm only hesitating between 4 possibilities:

• 4. cxd5 : Exchange Slav
• 4. e3 : Slow Slav
• 4. Nc3 : Main Line Slav
• 4. Qc2 : Attempt to get a Catalan

More comments and opinions are appreciated.