Nf3 or Nh3 against Dutch

Against the Dutch I play a Catalan style setup with g3 and fianchettoing the bishop.  According to both the opening explorer and stockfish, the king's knight can go to either f3 or h3.  Can anyone explain the pros and cons and reasoning behind both setups?  This is my first post in the forums so thanks in advance for your help.

Nh3 limits some black setups since the b7 pawn is under fire (and if black plays ...d7-d6, with pawns on c7 and e7, and White responds with d4-d5 to gain space and stop the advance ...e7-e5 (otherwise en passant), the "undermining" move c7-c6 costs a pawn (dxc6), unless it's prepared first-this is rather important in the Leningrad Dutch), and it makes undermining moves against both a black pawn and knight at e4 easier since f3 can be played. And in certain black pawn storm systems, ...e5 and ...g5 can be met by f2-f4 (a similar idea happens in the King's Indian). And Nh3 can be especially effective against the stonewall dutch since white can challenge a ...Bd6 with Bf4 without allowing doubled f-pawns (which would otherwise allow Black to open the g-file fully). This also allows White an easier time to get the ideal Nf3/Nd3 setup (Nh3-f4-d3, Nb1-d2-f3) vs the stonewall.

Nf3 setups make the ...e5 advance harder to play for black, and White is already aiming at e5 in some variations.

Thats really helpful. Thanks very much for putting in the time to respond.

As a Dutch player myself, Nh3 is best geared against the Stonewall setup. Against the Leningrad and Classical, Nf3 is better. That is why there are move order issues galore. Like after 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.c4, sometimes will recommend 4...c6 to maintain the possibility of the classical with 5...d6 if 5.Nh3 and 5...d5 id 5.Nf3. If 5.Nc3, Black must make a choice with the d-pawn, but at least the knight is committed to c3, so no Ba3 issues and no Nd2 lines.

If 1.d4 f5 2.c4 e6 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 d5 5.Nh3, then after 5...Bd6 6.Bf4, Black should play 6...Be7 and not trade. Only one White piece can occupy f4 at a time.

With Nh3 you have better chances to catch the Stonewall player off-guard. As the Nh3 is a bit of an anti Stonewall black`s best bet is going d6 but we automatically go d5 as Stonewall players without having studied the Nh3 set up too much. It is not the end of the world but black can get a difficult position if imprecise.

I believe Nh3 is relevant against Leningrad setups, but I am not too familiar with the specifics.

The move Nh3 is better when White Dark Bishop is on d2.

Under normal circumstances the ideal set up would be Nf3 + Bb2.

What's funny is, in the Catalan opening, Black is actually *recommended* to transpose directly into a stonewall(!) if the c1 bishop goes to b2 (this usually happens in variations with an early ...Bb4+ where White responds Bd2, and then tries rerouting the bishop to c1-b2 or c3).

Of course then you have Hikaru and Magnus playing ...Ne4 and ...g5 against some early Bf4 moves (sometimes with ...f5 later) anyway in the Catalan :/

"under fire"

If White Dark Bishop gets dragged to d2, Then yes Black should go for a Stone Wall because White will waste a tempo rerouting the Bishop from d2 to c1 to b2.

White could try to save the tempo loss by going from d2 to c3, but the Bishop is vulnerable in that spot and might cost white tempo later on if the C file opens up.

Moving the Bishop from d2 to f4 is probably the best solution, but that would require White to play Nh3 which is more committed.

The Best Scenario is for White to avoid the situation. If White is able to play Nf3 + Bb2 with out having the Bishop dragged to d2.

Then White is winning with Slight Advantage against the Stone Wall Dutch with an evaluation of 0.30 which is Plus over Equals.

White position can be natured into a win.

My Opening preparation has revealed Black inability to equalize in the opening.

Your "opening preparation" is lacking and it has already been explained to you why you are wrong. I will explain it again referring to the position you claimed was winning for white in another thread with the suggested here Nf3 Bb2 plan. White`s position below is by no means winning. So your "White is winning with slight advantage" is just pure fantasy. Another fantasy is that white has any problems whatsoever in the Nh3 line compared to this line and that this is somehow to be preferred I am telling you as a Dutch defence player the Nh3 line much more problematic in practical terms and much more inconvenient for the Dutch player to face and is by no means worse in computer evaluation.

Have you even studied the Catalan? How many hours?

I've studied almost *EVERY* GM game (in fact, doing more today) in the closed Catalan from 2860+ (Magnus Carlsen) down to 2700 sorted by descending rating. You have *NOT*. And I'd bet the farm you haven't. Because if you had, you would most likely be a titled player and would be showing more common sense on these forums.

White should *NOT* reroute the bishop to b2 or c3 if Black adopts a stonewall setup. Besides this transposing into some lines of the Queen's Indian (if Black plays ...Ba6), a ...Ne4 and ...f5 setup becomes far more attractive after white re-routes the B--meaning this bishop should remain on e3 if possible. If the B goes back to e1, often black's e4 knight goes back to d6 if White plays Nc3. Also, the main main lines of the closed Catalan involve White playing Bf4 and Ne5 (but not Ne5 before Bf4), and aiming for the e2-e4 push, and Black has to try to stop it by doing a "perpetual"on white' f4 bishop with Nf6-h5, forcing White (when his B is on d2) to play a c4xd5 c6xd5 Ne5-c6 strategy, and so on to avoid the draw (there is one other way to avoid this after Bf4, playing ....Ba6 before White plays Ne5, which can once again transpose into Queen's Indian territory). Delaying attacking the Bf4 by playing ...Rc8 after white has played Ne5, allows White to play Nb1-c3(!) then after ...Nh5, then Bc1!, and White gets in e4 with advantage.

While Hikaru and Magnus, Giri and some other super GM's have played ...Ne4 and ...f5/g5 successfully against white's bishop on d2 (or f4), the stonewall vs the bishop on the correct diagonal makes it harder for black to fully equalize against accurate play. In the most testing lines, the bishop remains on this diagonal, often going to e3 sometimes to e1 temporarily), and it should *NOT* go to b2 like you wrongly suggest. (of course, chess is a draw no matter what opening you play (even giving white a big center can equalize--e.g. Petrosian Queen's Indian), as long as it isn't garbage (Englund Gambit) *and* you make accurate moves relating to the position and tactics at hand). Black has an easier time equalizing by just playing the standard ...c6 and ...b6 and...Bb7 setups than ...Ne4/f5/g5 if the bishop is on c1-h6 diagonal.

Your Diagram is showing 0.28.

I have tried telling you in the other thread your engine is off by 0.02. The position is 0.30.

0.30 is considered Plus over Equals

+/= is a Slight Advantage to White.

This means White is slightly winning and White can try to nature that advantage and build it up to a winning advantage.

I have already tried telling you this in a different thread. Instead of listening, you blocked me and insulted me by calling me a troll.

If you want to continue believing your own lies, Then you go right ahead. You’re not going to convince me because I know you’re wrong.

I have done my own research!

I have already told you the truth and everything you have shown only proves my point that you are confused and wrong.

0.28 is what you are arguing??

0.30 is Plus over Equals!

So you are arguing the 0.02 difference makes Black Position TOTALLY EQUAL?

0.28 would be Equals

Is that what you truly think?

You simply don’t know what you’re talking about. I tried telling you, but you don’t get it.

Furthermore, Engines are not considered to be the most reliable source in Chess Openings because they can suffer from Horizon Effect issues. This is why Human Evaluations & Databases have always been a more preferred way of trying to determine whether or not a move or position in the opening is good or not.

It doesn’t mean engines can’t be good in the opening. A lot of engines have been preprogrammed with Opening Templates/Data so their moves can resemble Human Tried and Tested moves.

It has happened throughout the evolution of engines which you would know if you have played chess for any extended length of time.

My engine is off? Really says who? I haven`t seen your engine yet. So go on and show me the parameters of your engine and the screen shot with the same position. Until you have done so you have no leg to stand on. You can claim anything you want and any fantasized engine evaluation you want you are yet to show the evidence for your claim.

Your plus over equals means absolutely nothing let alone claiming white is winning as you do EVEN IF IT WERE 0.30. You THE PROCEED TO SAY yourself engines don`t matter so why go on about engines at all? You say the human evaluation matters more SO WHY BOTHER WITH THE 0.02 AND THE 0.30. But guess what the human evaluation is also that the position is equal - may be yours isn`t but at the end of the day what do you know? You can claim I know nothing either as you did which is your right so lets play the Dutch then. You go on and play your WINNING line, I`ll give you material odds and still beat you. So we can settle that quite easily if you want.

I have asked you before to show me the concrete lines leading to the exact win and you haven`t. Go on and show me a sample game which is a loss for black and I`ll show you 10 ways in which black could have played better and not lost. You claim engines matter then go on to say engines don`t matter. Which one is it? Do they matter or do they not?

You are wrong on all accounts - human evaluation and databases ARE NOT PREFERRED - they are used in conjunction with engines because engine capabilities change all the time.

Since we also need to stay on topic do you mind also answering my other question and supporting your answer with engine evaluation with screen shots and concrete lines well into the middlegame showing why Nh3 is worse than Nf3+Bb2?

@Psychic_Vililante

Let me remind you that you have No Horse in this Race.

You are sitting here talking bad about the position I gave you.

The Position you are ranting and raving over isn’t one you created.

The Position you are ranting and raving over isn’t one your chess engine provided for you.

The Position you are looking at is what I showed you and you then proceeded to put in your engine to evaluate.

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I told you White was winning with Slight Advantage before you or your metal monstrosity of an engine ever knew this line existed.

Your engine could have gave dozens upon dozens of evaluations for this position.

It could have said 0.10 or 0.15 or -0.10 or -0.15

Dozens upon dozens of different evaluations.

Your metal machine decided to settle on 0.28?

And everyone knows 0.30 is considered a slight advantage for White which is what I said long before you even approached your engine with this line.

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Is it not strange that your engine chose to pick the numbers which are soooo close to 0.30.

I didn’t know what chess engine you have.

Am I lucky?

I’m just lucky guy that your engine chose those numbers?

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You can trick yourself into believing that I haven’t showed you any concrete lines, but your not tricking me.

Your standing on the concrete I poured.

It is the foundation I laid.

Most people don’t play the line the way I play it.

Observe the position again very closely.

What move does databases show as white move?

I have seen databases favor moves such as g3, c4, or even Nc3.

What move does your engine play?

I think most engines want to play g3.

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I don’t play those moves.

I play Nf3 and that is how you know my line is different.

I believe the move g3 is a very committed move which shows whites hand a little to early.

I believe the move Nf3 maintains maximum flexibility while simultaneously still keeping Black under maximum pressure.

The moves d4 + Nf3 are very universal moves played in thousands of chess openings.

Black has no way of knowing or deciphering what set up white will employ.

Black is left in the dark from this position.

The moves d4 + Nf3 are also very powerful moves controlling the center.

White moves are in no way, shape, or form throw away moves.

These 2 moves are quiet deadly due to all the overlapping openings white can still play which feature both moves.

Black has to play his moves accurately and with care because these moves by white don’t let up on the pressure.

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Observe, The OP Thread Title “Nf3 or Nh3 against the Dutch”

Nh3 isn’t an option for me!!

Why? Because I don’t play 2.g3 which is the mainline move.

I play my way.

Some Databases show Nf3 as 2nd most popular move.

Other Databases show Nf3 as like 4th.

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Take a gander though my line - Each move I looked at very carefully and thoughtfully.

I wanted each move to have purpose, meaning, and a flair of my play style.

It’s only move 2, but I don’t care because I’m relentless.

I’m on my opponents like white on rice.

I’m not fast, spontaneous, or shocking.

I’m slow, deliberate, and methodical.

Like a Python trying to eat a prey.

Your starting to see it now? Aren’t you?

So many different moves white could have made.

- Move 2.g3

- Move 7.Qc2, 7.Nc3, 7.Bf4

- Move 8.a4, 8.Ne5

- Move 9.Qc1, 9Ne5

So many different moves title players have played.

But I am not those people and I can’t possibly hope to replicate their style of chess when mine is different. I play the moves which match me the best.

These are the moves - Every move is fluid, deliberate, and methodical.

White has no wasted motion in this position.

I believe White position is perfect.

I told you my evaluation.

You saw your own engines evaluation.

Go now and search for every ounce of information you can muster for this position.

Put all the information on a table.

Process it all.

Then decide what do you think the evaluation is?

Can you say with all honesty Black position is perfect?

- Backward E6 pawn

- Hole on E5

- What is Black Light Square Bishop doing? Prisoner behind his own pawns.

- What is Black Queen side doing? Is Black going to develop a piece any time this year?

- Its almost move 10 already and those Queen side pieces are lagging behind.

Does White suffer from similar issues?

No! Why? Because White is winning.

Those are loser problems, not winner problems!

I am clearly wasting my time with you. You have a lot to learn not only about chess but also how to conduct yourself during an argument.

You have not "showed" me or given "me" anything, the position in question from the screenshot above is a standard position 9 moves into the opening which you claimed to be winning. For you to think you have somehow revealed something the chess world did not know and you have provided a 9 move line with no subsequent analysis is quite frankly delusional.

Let me say this again 0.28 for white 9 moves into the opening is laughable and means nothing. I think you also knew this and that is why you tried to turn it into 0.30 and when I asked you for proof you tried to talk your way out saying engines don`t matter.

As for Nh3 in Catalan vs Nf3+Bb2 being inferior because you don`t play the Catalan, well since when does your personal dislike for something make it objectively worse? Saying titled players play the Catalan and you don`t play it because you can`t replicate their style is baffling. The Catalan is played by everyone not just titled players so again you not being to play like someone else ,by your own admission, does not make what they play worse.

You positional evaluation is superficial at best and any Dutch player would simply laugh at it as the "issues" you are talking about are dealt with in any half-decent manual or source on the Dutch. I won`t be doing you any favours by pointing out your mistakes. You are on your own.

@Psychic_Vililante

You have not "showed" me or given "me" anything, the position in question from the screenshot above is a standard position 9 moves into the opening which you claimed to be winning.

Part in Red is Incorrect!

I showed you and everyone else the “Standard” moves played in this position.

I showed the Deviation’s White will make when they are playing the line in a more “Standard” way.

My moves are not the normal set of moves.
My moves would be considered sideline moves or some might even call my moves obscure moves which are far from normal.

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You are correct about the text in yellow!

I told you I would show you a position where white is winning!

And I DELIVERED!

After 9 straight moves, White is winning Plus over Equals!

White has Slight Advantage and I gave you the evaluation of 0.30.

Let me say this again 0.28 for white 9 moves into the opening is laughable and means nothing.

It means everything.

Proves I am right.

If there was absolutely nothing in the position, the engine would of gave a different evaluation such as 0.10.

White has slight advantage in this position which is 0.30. Your engine show 0.28

This would indicate your engine is off by 0.02.
Many factors can explain why your engine is off.

- Maybe, you didn’t give it enough think time.

- Maybe, your engine is outdated.

- Maybe, when you downloaded your engine the file was corrupt

The reasons are endless.

I’m not here to explain to you the evaluation habits of your own engine.

I am here telling you the human evaluation.

This isn’t Rocket Science or some Mathematical Equation which requires extreme accuracy.

The game of chess isn’t solved.

Chess evaluations can vary slightly even among engines.

Chess evaluations are more comparable to hand grenades and horse shoes.

You don’t always have to be dead on to get your mark.

Any Chess player reading this thread can understand what I have said.

I called the Slam Dunk before you even knew there was a Basketball Net in the area.

I told you it was slightly winning 0.30.

Your engine can back with 0.28.

I bet your engine was flickering between 0.30 and 0.28 and you decided to take a screenshot in that moment to try and prove me wrong.

Look at the drop box of the possible moves by Black.

Some of the drop box moves in your own picture show 0.31 or 0.32 Evaluations.

Remember: never argue with an idiot. They will just bring you down to their turf then beat you with experience.

1. You are in no position to talk about my engine when you haven`t shown yours. You continue to refuse to show your engine yet have the audacity to speculate what my engine might have shown while at the same time claim engines don`t matter and then go back to the engine evaluation again in your next post. Very self - contradictory, inconsistent and all in all pretty pathetic.

2. You are in no position to lecture me about the human evaluation when it is clear you have not read a single book on the Dutch defence and do not seem to know that the positional features of the Dutch you portray to be an irrefutable "doom and gloom" have been dissected over and over and over again in any Dutch defence source and are a something any decent Dutch player is in theory well equipped to deal with confidently and still play for the win (you will lose some but you will also win some - such is life).

3. You have declined my challenge to play the Dutch with material odds in your favour in your so called "slightly WINNING" position and that says it all.

I`m not wasting any more time with you. Goodbye.

@NM Falkentyne

I didn’t ignore your post.

The problem is you managed to twist my words.

Then you began arguing against the twisted words you created.

I have been trying to figure out how to unravel all the twists you did, but I can’t seem to find the right words to do it.

The below statement is what you wrote.

White should *NOT* reroute the bishop to b2 or c3 if Black adopts a stonewall setup. Besides this transposing into some lines of the Queen's Indian (if Black plays ...Ba6), a ...Ne4 and ...f5 setup becomes far more attractive after white re-routes the B--meaning this bishop should remain on e3 if possible.

I never said White “should” reroute the bishop.

I was commenting on your previous point.

re-routes the B--meaning this bishop should remain on e3 if possible. If the B goes back to e1, often black's e4 knight goes back to d6 if White plays Nc3. Also, the main main lines of the closed Catalan involve White playing Bf4 and Ne5 (but not Ne5 before Bf4), and aiming for the e2-e4 push, and Black has to try to stop it by doing a "perpetual"on white' f4 bishop with Nf6-h5, forcing White (when his B is on d2) to play a c4xd5 c6xd5 Ne5-c6 strategy, and so on to avoid the draw (there is one other way to avoid this after Bf4, playing ....Ba6 before White plays Ne5, which can once again transpose into Queen's Indian territory). Delaying attacking the Bf4 by playing ...Rc8 after white has played Ne5, allows White to play Nb1-c3(!) then after ...Nh5, then Bc1!, and White gets in e4 with advantage.

I don’t play the position you’re talking about so I’m not very familiar with what you’re saying.

Maybe, Other Chess players who play the line you mentioning can use the information you’re saying to help them play that sort of position better.

I avoid the line entirely in my Opening Preparation. I thought I told you in previous thread.

Perhaps, I didn’t. I’m not sure.

The line you’re talking about is the Bb4+/Retreat line which arises from Nimzo/Catalan.

Then Black transposes into the Stonewall at which point White has to figure out how to deal with misplaced Bishop on d2

I never reach this position.

Maybe, I should try it.

BUT I haven’t due to playing different line.