no worries. 
Ponziani Opening
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Does the Fraser defence lead to advantage or can White bail out with a perpetual, either way it seems that Black is calling the shots. Would not want to play Ponziani against a lower rated opponent if I had to face this. So for all intents and purposes the Ponziani is refuted,
As White I called refuted as a draw, sorry but thats my take on it. A refuted black defence means Black loses. Perhaps White can dodge this with the 4.d3 move but seems like a reversed Philidor setup with a tempo.
Draw by perpetual, is different to maybe draw by long drawn out game. Lets say I was a 2500 player and I am paired against a 2000 rated player do I employ the Ponziani when I know that he can force me to play 4.d3. I am happy to play against the Petroff and know many lines that keep winning chances alive.
Rubiks in that situation you could play 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 and see what Black will play. What I am saying is that there are many drawing lines after you open 1. e4.
In the future the same thing can be said about 1. d4
Unfortunately, it seems, at the very highest levels Black can draw against any sound opening.
The Fraser Defense is ingenius and seems to end in a draw. However to get the draw Black would have to know the defense about 30 moves deep and there is always some chance that White will have found some good line to avoid a draw.
In your suggested situation which is Centaur Chess at the highest level opening 1. e4 can be held to a draw. On this site very few people are into Centaur Chess at the very highest level and 99% go by practicaal chances.
Games played in vote chess would be a good example of practical chances.
Here, in vote chess, the Ponziani Power team has won an amazing 13 in a row without allowing a loss or draw. Using math we find that winning 13 in a row is less than 1 chance in 100,000.
This is a very strong indication that playing the Ponziani for more than 99% of the population should give very good results for players who understand the theory of the Ponziani.
The Full Metal Jacket requires roughly 500 attempts to reach.
The Ponziani takes less than that, at least on ICC.
It could also be a matter of rating range, higher rated players are more likely to cross the river and throw their pawns forward looking for advantage, weaker players stay back in their turtle shell and beg not to be hurt too badly.
FirebrandX wrote
Getting back to your point about Bill Wall's line "refuting" the Ponzi, I'd have to say that both white and black would have to be very careful there in OTB. Considering how white is up 2 pieces, just one bad or even inaccurate move by black would instantly give white the win. Just because the computer can handle the incredibly poisonous tactics and evaluates the position as 0.00 doesn't mean it's just as easy for a human to pull off OTB. Clearly as black, you'd have to be intimately familiar with just about every branching line white could play, otherwise that 2-piece material advantage spells instant doom.
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It's true both sides have to tread carefully. White can also easily lose with his King stuck in the center and Black's pieces beautifully placed. If you study this as Black White would have almost an impossible time. There are a million bad choices for White, in fact in blitz, not one player got as far as 9 Rg1 before blundering.
The Fraser defense is deadly unless White is miraculously booked up in this.
You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.
- Tal
Hadron wrote:
FirebrandX wrote:
> On move 4, there's even less to work with. 4.d3 has been mentioned, but this is just a garbage move that gives black too much of an easy game.<
LOLZ @ you. I love it when people use sound bytes to dismiss ideas in chess: "garbage move"?
So it's blitz and one of the greatest players of the modern game but it is not what you play but how you play it. If you dismiss any idea out of hand in such a way as FirebrandX has, you are just asking for trouble....
Brian-
In 200 Open games by the genius David Bronstein some plays the Fraser Defense against him. The revered Grandmaster replies with 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 c3 Nf6 4 d3 and basically states that he wants no part of the piece sac line, the main line of the Fraser defense.
The Fraser Defense leads to many fun, exciting and relatively equal positions but you have to get to them first!
Come on-- was not the Fraser Defense invented after the time of Bronstein?
All sound chess openings end in a draw with best play on both sides.
It is possible that the Fraser Defense found this out early. Still it is very complicated and there may be a way for White to retain a small advantage.
I offer a prize for anyone who can find a line in the Ponziani against that defense which gives White the normal slight advantage.
If you want to know the prize message me personally.
Come on-- was not the Fraser Defense invented after the time of Bronstein?
Brian-
George Brunton Fraser was Scottish Champion in the 1800s.
I "invented" the Ponziani when I was 8.
took me til age 55 to appreciate George.
All Ponziani players should bow down to your true God.
252Fwww.chessmail.com%252Fassets%252Fphotos%252Ffraser.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.chessmail.com%252Ftimsite%252Fcorrbook.html%3B288%3B392">https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=908&q=George+Brunton+Fraser&oq=George+Brunton+Fraser&gs_l=img.12...2414.9775.0.11808.21.21.0.0.0.0.110.1814.19j2.21.0.cpsugrpqhmsignedin%2Chmss2%3Dfalse..0.0.0..1.1.17.img.8GuwTOyGDLc#facrc=_&imgrc=KE-_aZkr4tft2M%3A%3B7nwrqw6iIn7oCM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.chessmail.com%252Fassets%252Fphotos%252Ffraser.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.chessmail.com%252Ftimsite%252Fcorrbook.html%3B288%3B392
Love the variation, love the man.
Meet George Brunton Fraser, the true Ponziani prophet, the Nostradamus of Chess.
http://www.chessmail.com/timsite/corrbook.html
Jul 8, 2013
0
#996
Firebrand, I admit to never having considered the move in any real detail, but how is White doing after 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nxe5 Bd6 ? It looks about equal, but I probably wouldn't really mind playing either side in an OTB game.
I do have an idea--something to play vs the Fraser Defense. Problem is I do not have a computer strong enough to test the line.
If there is any strong player out there who also has a strong chess engine and will help me test the line--please message me.
i'll take it. LETSGO
I read the 58 pages of this thread. I sent out Dave Taylor's two Ponziani poems to thousands across the globe.
I was impressed FirebrandX mentioned my line before I did on page 38.
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6 weeks ago · Quote · #742
kantifields wrote:
Mainline_Novelty wrote:
Hey, what do you guys think about this 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Bc5!? piece sack line that was mentioned by Emms in "Play the Open Games With Black"?
White is better. the attack against f2is well parried.
Actually the best line shows black saccing 2 pieces, not just one:
And I'm wondering where white is supposedly better. The eval score from Houdini 3 show white not being able to stop a perpetual check draw.
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I've been blitzing and fritzing this line for 4 years and posting my analysis at BrianWallChess@Yahoogroups.com.
Also I was surprised to hear that Emms mentions this line. I would be curious about his thoughts.
Thanks for entertaining me for hours.
What to do about the FraserDefense if you play the Ponziani?
First this assumes
1. any sound chess opening ends in a draw with perfect play by both sides
2. The Fraser Defense is very complicated and very often ends in an equal position or some kind of a drawn position.
3. So far nobody has found a response to the Fraser Defense which gives White a slight advantage.
Having said the above I suggest do not play the two lines which avoid this sequence
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 Nxe4 5. d5
The alternative lines are very drawish and throw away the good analysis after 5. d5 for lines not leading to the Fraser
My guess is that fewer than one game out of 10 will Black go into the Fraser Defense.
Why? Because it is so very complicated and also because
White has a myraid of responses some going to about the 30th move.
So, if you like the Ponziani just allow the Fraser and have prepared one of these very long lines which end in a draw. Black cannot really be prepared for all the very long lines White can play against the Fraser.
If somehow the player playing the Fraser has all these hundreds of line in his repetoire
he is a super chess genius anyway and a draw would be an adequate result.
I am saying Ponziani players do not have to be afraid of the Fraser variation [even though it is ingenius]
The Ponziani gives very good practical chances. The Ponziani Vote Chess Team has now won 13 in a row and this in a great indication of good practical chances.
Hey how do I make those click and moves on this site? I can do them on others.
http://www.chess.com/forum/view/help-support/a-guide-to-posting-your-games-on-chesscom
damn you doggy
It's all good, they are different resources. Also, your link gives more comprehensive instruction.