Schliemann defense

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pfren
jatait47 έγραψε:
pfren wrote:

Quite unfortunately the direct 9.Nxa7+! has practically archived the whole line as problematic for Black.

 

That's certainly more testing than 10 Nxa7+, but it's not so clear either. There's a very important game with 9 Nxa7+ Bd7 10 Bxd7+ Nxd7 11 f4 Qf5! - Nekhaev-Nisipeanu, correspondence 2012. And I'm currently 4½/5 as Black in this line

 

That game featured a clever recipe by Livi (13.a4 Bb4!?), but this is not enough. Instead of Nekhaev's 14.c3?! and the great piece sac 14...Nc5! white could (and should) trade Queens with 14.Qc4! Qc5 (forced) 15.Qxc5 Nxc5 16.Ke2, or 16.Nc3, when it is very hard to show compensation for a two-pawn deficit.

 

RubenHogenhout
14236987 schreef:

i like 4.Nc3 fe4 Nxe4 Nf6 as black

The only one time I got this on the board with white this also my opponent played.

Atfter        1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6  I never saw this before, that selden they play the Schliemann.  Atter 6.Qe2 d5 7.Nxf6 gxf6 I played the funny 8.Nd4 and won the game later. At home I saw 8.d4 was the theorie. But I knew nothing!

 

 

jatait47
pfren wrote:

That game featured a clever recipe by Livi (13.a4 Bb4!?), but this is not enough. Instead of Nekhaev's 14.c3?! and the great piece sac 14...Nc5! white could (and should) trade Queens with 14.Qc4! Qc5 (forced) 15.Qxc5 Nxc5 16.Ke2, or 16.Nc3, when it is very hard to show compensation for a two-pawn deficit.

 

Yes, that's the engine's first choice. But 13...Bb4! wasn't some casual punt in a blitz game. This was high-level correspondence, where both players obviously considered 14 Qc4 for White. In fact Nisipeanu had prepared the whole thing to play against Carlsen. After 14...Qc5 15 Qxc5 Bxc5 and then, for instance, 16 Ke2 c6 17 Nc3 Ne6 18 Nxe4 Rhe8, Black actually has compensation for three pawns, as Junior Tay shows in his recent book. Apparently, Nisipeanu was more worried about 14 0-0 Qc5+ 15 Rf2 Qxc2 16 d4, though that's defensible as well (my one draw came in this line).

DarkVlader
Philipper wrote:

An opening which has been fascinating me for a while is the Schliemann defense played in the Ruy Lopez or Spanish opening. Playing directly for the initiative with this aggressive opening by opening the f-file and attacking the kingside. It can also be used as a surprise weapon against your unknowing opponent! The opening goes as following:

 

After this, white has a numerous options like 4.exf5, 4.d3 or maybe 4.d4!? but developing with 4.Nc3 is considered best, as it develops a piece and supports the e4 pawn.

 

Below a wonderful game played by Pillsbury against Tarrasch:

 

I would like to conclude this article with my own game where I was playing with the black pieces:

 
 
Please let me know what you think of this interesting opening and your good/bad experiences with it!

I'd just like to point out that in the Tarrasch game, there was threefold repetition starting on move 49.

BeatleFred

The Schliemann is a great opening choice- very interesting positions!!  I became aware of it many years ago when playing the white side of the Lopez against a friend of mine who always played 3..f5

but he deviated:  e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bb5 f5 Nc3?! (d3 might be the safest choice)  Nd4!! (instead of the more common fxe)   Now try and play it from white side and see how hard it is to refute!

BeatleFred

Ps: whether you move the bishop, or capture the pawns, you might think white has an advantage, but black always seems to have very active counterplay !!  (if in doubt, try it as white and let me know what "winning" lines you find).  Nd4 is quite the move!!

jatait47
BeatleFred wrote:

Ps: whether you move the bishop, or capture the pawns, you might think white has an advantage, but black always seems to have very active counterplay !!  (if in doubt, try it as white and let me know what "winning" lines you find).  Nd4 is quite the move!!

Yes, 4...Nd4 (first played by Réti in 1919) can lead to very interesting positions. Unfortunately it's been pretty much worked out now, with the conclusion that 5 exf5 is good for White.

pfren

4...Nd4 is labelled as "First Bulgarian Variation" in the old Jaenisch book by Leonid Shamkovich with Eric Schiller as collaborator. Pretty complex, but technically refuted after 5.exf5.

 

ericthatwho

All openings are playable you are not a GM and neither is your opponent.

BeatleFred

Interesting that you brought up the Shamkovich book, as that was my main reference back in the late 80's when I used to play my friend. There really wasnt much else. I can only dream back then of all the resources we have now.  I wasnt able to go online in those days to gather more info, so the whole Nd4 move by my friend really caught my attention. I tried all sorts of lines in that Shamkovich book, but black seemed to prevail somehow...

Unfortunately, my friend doesnt play chess anymore. I'll have to see if I kept any old notes of the games.  There is another good book on the Schliemann by Junior Tay (move by move), I was really excited to get it when it was new, only to discover its all about fxe and only one game on Nd4 (page 247, looking at it now) however, it does recommend 5) exf5, so that might be end up being the correct refutation. Suppose I can test it vs computer and see how it goes...


pfren
BeatleFred έγραψε:

Interesting that you brought up the Shamkovich book, as that was my main reference back in the late 80's when I used to play my friend. There really wasnt much else. I can only dream back then of all the resources we have now.  I wasnt able to go online in those days to gather more info, so the whole Nd4 move by my friend really caught my attention. I tried all sorts of lines in that Shamkovich book, but black seemed to prevail somehow...

Unfortunately, my friend doesnt play chess anymore. I'll have to see if I kept any old notes of the games.  There is another good book on the Schliemann by Junior Tay (move by move), I was really excited to get it when it was new, only to discover its all about fxe and only one game on Nd4 (page 247, looking at it now) however, it does recommend 5) exf5, so that might be end up being the correct refutation. Suppose I can test it vs computer and see how it goes...


 

There were another couple of books in the eighties which dealt with the Jaenisch, but to my poor knowledge they were not translated in English from Russian. One of them was by GM Mikhail Tseitlin (translated into English several years later), and the other one by GM Leonid Yudasin. I still have them in my library.

BeatleFred

I cant help but compare my experiences as white against it, with any master or GM games played nowadays. Atleast now, vs 1987 when I was 23 yrs old, I can easily find alot more Info online (Chessbase, 365 Chess and so forth). 

Fischer played the Lopez often, its too bad the Schliemann was seldom seen, would be great to see how he would have handled it.  I have seen some games with Carlsen and todays top players, but they are mostly fxe lines, not Nd4! which I find to be so very interesting.  Kudos to anyone who chooses it as black, I admire your choice!  One thing for sure: the position and games will never be dull & boring.

I think 4) d3 seems to be the safest and what Carlsen would play, vs all the wild lines that can arise out of Nc3 and Nd4.  I was hoping Karjakan would have tried it against Carlsen in their championship match instead of all the long winded 3...a6 lines...

BeatleFred

Ps: even strong females have played it too, 1978 championship match (d3 line):

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1047306

jatait47
pfren wrote:

There were another couple of books in the eighties which dealt with the Jaenisch, but to my poor knowledge they were not translated in English from Russian. One of them was by GM Mikhail Tseitlin (translated into English several years later), and the other one by GM Leonid Yudasin. I still have them in my library.

Also, and perhaps the best from back then: Play the Schliemann Defence by Victor Ivanov & Alex Kulagin.

More recently, Ivan Sokolov's The Ruy Lopez Revisited has several pages on 4...Nd4 – and more on 4...Nf6 which can often transpose.

kindaspongey

The Ruy Lopez Revisited by Ivan Sokolov (2009)
http://dev.jeremysilman.com/shop/pc/Ruy-Lopez-Revisited-The-p3765.htm
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/931.pdf
The Schliemann Defence: Move by Move

https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7797.pdf

fabelhaft

Radjabov played 17 games with the Schliemann 2007-11 against players like Carlsen (3 times), Kramnik, Anand, Topalov, Karjakin, etc and only lost one of them:

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?playercomp=black&pid=49796&eco=C63&title=Radjabov+playing+Ruy+Lopez,+Schliemann+Defense+(C63)+as+Black+

 

BeatleFred

Yes, I had looked over those games, many are with d3, would have been interesting to see how Nc3 Nd4 was handled. 

BeatleFred
CAN WHITE WIN IN THIS WILD POSITION?  AS I SAID: SCHLIEMANN IS NEVER DULL/BORING!!
  
 

 

BeatleFred

If Black plays 8.. dxc instead of Nf6, looks like a forced draw! 


 

jatait47

Dunno, but 6 Nxd4 exd4 7 Qh5+ is unnecessarily sharp. Simply 6 Ba4 is better.