im still waiting for your limerick Tonydal! (not straight away, lets find a good time for one then release it out go go go)
well i havnt actually read the comments, perhaps i should, but my personal thoughts on Nc3? BORING! well thats because i never played it. i prefer to get my pawn structure and bishops in the right place first.
I've always been of the belief that the positions that result after 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 d4 3.Ne2 favor white long term. White gets a similar position to many other openings/defenses, but with the f1 bishop outside the pawn chain. No matter what the King's Indian experts would have you believe, that bishop is not happier on g7 than it would be on c5 or b4.
I've played this type of opening before, and again I think that the whole point for white to play 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 is that he is hoping for 2... d4. Not only is that a good enough reason for me not to play into it, but I don't think it is even that good a move.
In the italian game the f4 plan is not done very much even though the bishop consistnetly aims at the kingside just like the pawn storm because an attack on f7 would be meaningless if the position is totally closed and the bishop may even be kicked back more than on g2. d4 and queenside expansion is more of a priority because of that. I think black could eventually win time on the bishop in this line as long as he doesn't allow the diagonal to become too important, which hopefully won't because it's still a pretty closed position and the diagonal could be covered. 2...d4 is a perfectly good move and it scores better for black than for white even though white is very likely the better prepared. But I think it's a balanced position.
This may have been cover already but is there anything wrong with 1.Nc3 e5 for black.
Yes, and I think white does best to transpose to something. You know what is good though, 1...Nf6, when 2 d4 is a queen pawn opening with the blocked c pawn, while e4 e5 is a vienna, which is usually easy for black. Although if white plays 2 Nf3 the game can get a bit dull, but black could try playing ...d5 and use his c pawn actively unlike white.
All I know is I 've had success with it the few times (so far ) that i 've used it. if you really want to see N c3 (The Van Geet) played by a virtuouso, look up the games of the Dutch master Gerard Welling.
This is my first choice opening and I've hundreds of games starting 1.nc3 and 1..nc6. Is there a group for these?
Regarding whether 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 d4 makes white happy or sad - it seems to me that it all hinges on how happy white would be in a typical KID setup to be able to magically play Bf1-c4 or Bf1-b5. It might be enough for equality on the black side (which does "refute" in a sense the opening of white at least at the higher levels), but it also might not be enough. I prefer white in those positions, and generally speaking I play a lot of the white side of the KID.
I sometimes play 1. Nc3 and usually transpose into the Vienna Game or Veresov.
Black has a good percentage against 1.Nc3 after c5. Engine suggested 2.e4 which is indeed the most common move but even this has 43% win by black. 2... e6 or Nc6 are the most common moves. still in favor of black.
Black has a good percentage against 1.Nc3 after c5. Engine suggested 2.e4 which is indeed the most common move but even this has 43% win by black. 2... e6 or Nc6 are the most common moves. still in favor of black.
There was a major 400-page writing of this opening back about 10 years ago. "Knight on the Left: 1.Nc3"
White has an independent line, 1.Nc3 c5 2.Nf3 intending 3.d4 and fianchettoing his Bishop.
Basically, take the Sicilian, and replace e4 and one other move (depending on what line Black plays) with g3 and Bg2.
ozzie_c_cobblepot wrote:
1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 c6!
And black is better
3. d4! transposing to a Caro-Kann.
Honestly, I think 1. Nc3 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nxe4 is at least equal for Black after 3... e5, 3... Nf6, 3... Nd7, or 3... Bf5.
ozzie_c_cobblepot wrote:
1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 c6!
And black is better
3. d4! transposing to a Caro-Kann.
Chesster, you are talking to a master who is a big time student of the Caro Kann. 3. d4 is exactly what he wants you to play, and maybe is not the best choice against a guy like him :D
Oh, I get it. The problem is that I can't find a reasonable move that doesn't transpose to the Caro.
"Nc3 offers no advantages over anything else"
Yes it does....people do not prepare for it. You dont think people prepare opening for no reason. They prepare them so they can do better against them. So the fact you avoid their preparation is an advantage.
That key position is all strategy, so I wouldn't exactly be worried. But some people may not understand the position.
You say that having never even played into that position (I'm assuming) as many say the same thing.
I didn't understand this sentence. What did I say?
This was when ozzie said he would never play into that position because it's so awful and white would have to do well in it. This kind of preparation is not like the sicilians obviously (which white was trying to avoid) so as long as you understand the position nobody would have a huge advantage. It's more so played to avoid theory than it is to actually scare the other side. The position gives both sides mutual chances and I like that type of closed position and could play it from either side, and I would have absolutely no preparation aside from seeing the position.