Why are there so less female chess-players?

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MasterOfNinjas
fookensoul wrote:

Not sure, I do know that my dad taught me chess and my mom doesn't know how to play.  Could be due to lack of interest.  After all, it's a dumb game where you have to think and can't even dress up the pieces...

Depends if thats what the female thinks, if they like dressing up then sure. Many people I know who are females but don't play chess say they think it's boring, I think there could be lack of interest.

corrijean
ElKitch wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:

The idea of sexual selection in this scenaro makes no sense to me.

It basically either proposes that humans consciously make all of their decisions based on it which is not true or it proposes that we have lizard brains with programming that causes us to subconsciously make our decisions based on it which is very hard to believe.

I'm pretty sure the only reason that most people have sex is because it feels good and not because of some complicated scientific mumbo jumbo.

And the whole women not playing chess thing is in my opinion a completly social construct because peer pressure is a #@$!...

We have got lizardbrains! Deep inside under the neocortex which does the more advanced stuff like reasoning, is the reptillianbrain where our deepest and oldest habits are 'seated', like fear. Not sure if it has alot to do with partnerselection, but there is no need for too. Also the whole evolutionary thing isn't that mumbo jumboish! 

I admit straight away that social construct also has to do alot with it. Therefore more men play, and more men = bigger chance of champions being men.

But think of this example:
60 cave(wo)men: 30 male + 30 female

10 males are strong and fit 
10 males are not so strong, but they are very kind
10 males are weak
15 beautiful women 
15 not so good looking women

Natural selection: (for the example only males will get selected)

Flu strikes when these men are kids: 
4 strong get infected, 2 die
5 not so strong get infected, 3 die
6 weak get infected, 4 die
 

When they are middle aged they have fights to establish their position in the group:
2 strong guys die
3 not so strong kind guys die, they are friendly and dont get fighted that much
4 weak guy dies

And not to forget the factor (bad) luck:
1 strong man is struck by lightning and dies.

So by the time they are ready to mate we are left with:

5 strong guys
4 nice guys
2 weak guys

Sexual selection

30 women can now choose from 11 left guys. Chance are that they will choose for either the strongest or for the kind guy. The kind guy will probably stick with them = higher chance that offspring grows up.

The strong males (who push the weak aside) will probably choose the beautiful women which probably results in strong offspring. 
The strong males also have more casual sex, which results in extra offspring.
The kind and weak guys can reach a step higher by putting in their best effort. Who will do extra good? They are not very strong, but perhaps they have other qualities: good talking, being kind, being smart. So from those groups the people with other good qualities will also have a bigger chance to reproduce with a more beautiful woman (=stronger kids in theory) or with more women (=more offspring)

And then it starts all over, but from the first generation the weak guys have hardly reproduced. The strong or the "hard working" guys did reproduce.

And if you do that experiment a million times over time the males get stronger and smarter.

And all this also apply to women, but since they get much much much fewer children the effect is much less strong. 

There is a pretty big flaw in your model. Women outnumber men significantly. It is the women who will have to compete for the men in this scenario.

zborg
Elubas wrote:

See, this guy, @ElKitch, knows his fewer from his less -- trust him.

 Laughing  Indeed, so many keystrokes by @Kitchey.  Yikes.

johnyoudell

At various times it has been possible to ask this question about a whole range of activities. Why no great women novelists? Why no great women poets? Where are the women philosophers/physicists/mathmeticians/painters/political leaders and on and on and on.

And then particular women demonstrate that they can be just as brilliant in these fields as men.

In the particular case of chess the Polgar sisters explode the notion that women just can't do it as vividly as a thing can be demonstrated.

So what goes on? As far as I can see the answer is a combination of biology and social conditioning.

Look at the post above about talented chess playing girls who do not, on reaching their later teens, progress at the rate of comparable boys.  The reason, I suspect, is that their hormones and their environment channel them towards emotional aims which will culminate in motherhood.

And look at Judit.  Just when she was being talked of as a likely challenger for the world title she took time out to have two children. No way back to the top after that.

But more girls and women are coming into chess. This site demonstrates that.  And since Judit blazed the path other women are starting to eschew the ghetto of women's chess.  I predict a women's world champion within a generation, or maybe two.

They will get a cheer from me. :)

ElKitch
corrijean wrote:

There is a pretty big flaw in your model. Women outnumber men significantly. It is the women who will have to compete for the men in this scenario.

Women are subject to natural selection as well. I wrote it in the header: Natural selection: (for the example only males will get selected).But they too are subject to selection, both natural and sexual. Its just that the effect is smaller, because they reproduce at a slower rate. The strongest female still only gets 1/2 kids per year, but she probably does get them from the fittest male.

corrijean
ElKitch wrote:
corrijean wrote:

There is a pretty big flaw in your model. Women outnumber men significantly. It is the women who will have to compete for the men in this scenario.

Women are subject to natural selection as well. I wrote it in the header: Natural selection: (for the example only males will get selected).But they too are subject to selection, both natural and sexual. Its just that the effect is smaller, because they reproduce at a slower rate. The strongest female still only gets 1/2 kids per year, but she probably does get them from the fittest male.

If you are going change your argument in this fashion, only the single fittest male would reproduce, and he'd do so with all the females. None of the other males would reproduce. 

corrijean

In fact, your model and the outcomes you propose don't make a lick of sense.

ElKitch

For a study that I didnt finish we had the book "biological psychology" by Kalat. Even though I have nothing to do with the subject anymore it is very interesting and also readable for people who are not very familiar with the subject. Google has large chunks of the book online:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=evbdjAQYA1cC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=evolutionary+psychology+kalat&source=bl&ots=zNSxPzeZcv&sig=QmIRgZYT1kDvvKwPLNOXCzNOoVA&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=HdGBUL4up6zRBdv1gIgE&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=evolutionary%20psychology%20kalat&f=false

Its about the things we discuss here and much much more. Why do dogs yawn? Why do our eyes see two colours differently when they really are the same? Also with nice experiments to do yourself to see how the brain works. But the stuff I posted is Evolutionairy psychology. All that is mainly theory and, admittingly, it can sometimes sounds nice and logical but it is not proven true.

corrijean

It isn't nice and logical. That is why I am objecting to it. 

Perhaps some of the elements of the model aren't stated correctly. 

chapablanca2000

Women do not have a subliminal urge to kill their fathers. Be thankful for that. Smile

ElKitch

That could very well be, I am also no expert on this matter.

Please do note that these evolutionairy systems nowadays hardly apply to humans as explained earlier. Perhaps most "fit" male is the milkman :D He reproduces the most and has other men taking care of his offspring.

Here's an image of what I said in words: (from the wiki of natural selection)

corrijean

That is a satisfactory model. Laughing

Annabella1

Indeed  lol

ElKitch

Selection is everywhere! (whats the satisfactory model? if people are satisfied with the product it stays on the market?)

waffllemaster
Elubas wrote:

I have beaten the dead horse with the topic, but an observation I would like to note is that a lot of these obsessive, abstractly goal-seeking activities, not just chess, tend to have more males playing. For example, poker, darts, racing, video games, shred guitarists, ping pong -- something about all these things just seem to have some abstract nature to them, where you can keep practicing your technique forever and still not perfect them, making them into a sort of "endless journey"; additionally, they are satisfying only within themselves.

Personally, I find there to be a lot of things in common that the stuff I listed has, as if there is some typical mindset that makes you want to play these things that men have a higher tendency to have. And of course, gender roles could be a strong factor as well.

Sort of off to the side, does anyone else notice that everyone who plays chess seems to like tennis? (myself included) That's all I hear from chess players -- "I like to play tennis too." It's getting kind of annoying :)

Tennis doesn't interest me Tongue Out

 

Feel better?

Annabella1

me neither lol

corrijean

I play tennis and racquetball.

Does that prove I'm a chess player?

waffllemaster

I like racquetball though heh.

baddogno

For some reason, maybe our forum's fascination with Josh Waitzkin, I would have thought martial arts more popular.  

kco

I like tenpin bowling and archery.