Plus scores vs Fischer?

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jpd303

Historians can you please tell me who had an overall plus score vs Fischer?  and while im asking anybody know who had plus scores vs Lasker, Capa, Alekhine, Botvinik?  who got to play every champion from Lasker to Karpov?  Kasporov vs Karpov w/d/l? 

Daniel3

I know a few people who had an even lifetime score with Fischer, but a plus score? I don't know.

ericmittens

I think Efim Geller did.

JG27Pyth

Who got to play every champion from Lasker to Karpov? -- Hmmm... Pretty sure Botvinnik did (hell he played for the world championship against 4 of them!) ... Samuel Reshevsky played them all I believe. I'd imagine anyone with games against both Lasker Karpov would quailfiy. Anyone else beside Botvinnik and Reshevsky?

Lasker, Capablanca, Alekhine, Euwe, Botvinnik, Smyslov, Tal, Petrossian, Spassky, Fischer, Karpov.

dsachs

Efim Geller had a plus score against Fischer. In official tournaments and matches totalling 10 games Geller scored +5 -2 =3.

Geller also has plus scores against other World Champions, +4=-1=7 against Botvinnik, +5-3=34 against Petrosian, +11-9=33 against Smyslov. He also is even againsts Tal +6-6=23

With reference to your second question. Andor Lilienthal (b may 5 1911) has played (and beaten) Lasker, Capablanca, Alekhine, Euwe, Botvinnik, Smyslov. I don't know if he has plus scores against them, but he does have an even score against Capablanca. He's actually a pretty cool guy, being 97 and living an independent lifestyle.

Another player to check out is Boris Gulko. He has a plus score against Kasparov+3-1=4. He even beat Kasparov with the Black pieces.

Here's one of Geller's wins with White against Fischer in the Sicilian Najdorf.

dsachs

I think Lilienthal is the closest to (if not the only) GM to have played all 10 champions you mentioned, but I'd have to look into it more.

JG27Pyth
dsachs wrote:

I think Lilienthal is the closest to (if not the only) GM to have played all 10 champions you mentioned, but I'd have to look into it more.


As I mentioned, both Reshevsky and Botvinnik have played all (or does Botvinnik not count, since he's one of the ten?) None of the three (including Lilienthal) have plus scores against Lasker, Capa, Alekhin, & Botvinnik

jpd303

wow great knowledge there guys thanks!  reshevsky did play everyone from Lasker to Karpov i found that on chessgames.com i think!  the gulko kasparov game was interesting...garry must have felt overly aggressive that day, to much positional manuvers against Karpov sent him on the warpath or something (that was before their matches though wasnt it?!)  Geller is truely an underated player if he had plus scores against Botvinik, Smyslov, Petrosian, and Fischer!  and even score against Tal!  wow cool, i wonder what his secret was?

goldendog

One of Geller's secrets was superior opening preparation. He was a great strategist and a great tactician. So why'd he lose enough to never get close to the WC title?

He ran into players like Spassky and Korchnoi and Keres along the qualifying path.

He was great but less great than others, and his style was more conducive to tournament play.

Some lifetime scores (from wiki):

Mikhail Botvinnik* + 4 – 1 = 7

Vasily Smyslov* + 11 – 9 = 33

David Bronstein + 5 – 4 = 12

Paul Keres + 7 – 8 = 21


Tigran Petrosian* + 5 – 3 = 34

Boris Spassky* + 8 – 10 = 18

Mark Taimanov + 8 – 9 = 13

Bobby Fischer* + 5 – 3 = 2

Viktor Korchnoi + 6 – 11 = 16

Mikhail Tal* + 6 – 6 = 23

Lajos Portisch + 4 – 2 = 12

Bent Larsen + 4 – 5 = 2

jpd303

thanks goldendog, do you happen to know the life time record of Kasparov v Karpov?

Hydroxide

Can someone explain to me how this score format works?

+x-y=z

Because I've searched all over and couldn't find any place that explains it. My hypothesis would be x-wins y-losses z-total games..

goldendog

Looking it up, I see:

Karpov vs. Kasparov  +20-28=119

so Kasparov +8 after 167 games (classical time controls, not rapid or blitz)

arunk8186

@ Hydroxide,

X- wins, Y- Losses and Z- Draws

jpd303
goldendog wrote:

Looking it up, I see:

Karpov vs. Kasparov  +20-28=119

so Kasparov +8 after 167 games (classical time controls, not rapid or blitz)

cool where did you find this?  theyve played 167 games not counting rapid, blitz, and blindfolded (i assume)! 


goldendog
jpd303 wrote:
goldendog wrote:

Looking it up, I see:

Karpov vs. Kasparov  +20-28=119

so Kasparov +8 after 167 games (classical time controls, not rapid or blitz)

cool where did you find this?  theyve played 167 games not counting rapid, blitz, and blindfolded (i assume)!



 I googled around until I found a discussion on the topic. It saved me the trouble of sifting through megabase.

Of all their WC games against each other, the score is +2 Kasparov.

spoiler1
goldendog wrote:

One of Geller's secrets was superior opening preparation. He was a great strategist and a great tactician. So why'd he lose enough to never get close to the WC title?

He ran into players like Spassky and Korchnoi and Keres along the qualifying path.

He was great but less great than others, and his style was more conducive to tournament play.

Some lifetime scores (from wiki):

Mikhail Botvinnik* + 4 – 1 = 7

Vasily Smyslov* + 11 – 9 = 33

David Bronstein + 5 – 4 = 12

Paul Keres + 7 – 8 = 21


Tigran Petrosian* + 5 – 3 = 34

Boris Spassky* + 8 – 10 = 18

Mark Taimanov + 8 – 9 = 13

Bobby Fischer* + 5 – 3 = 2

Viktor Korchnoi + 6 – 11 = 16

Mikhail Tal* + 6 – 6 = 23

Lajos Portisch + 4 – 2 = 12

Bent Larsen + 4 – 5 = 2


 Efim Petrovich Geller (my idol in chess, by far)

I heard he was in constant time trouble though....

TheOldReb

I believe Najdorf played with 11 world champions in his life....

Ilundar

Tal had 4-2 against Fischer.

Fischer fans say 4-4 but they have to include 2 blitz games from Herceg Novi 1970.Not very serious......

TheOldReb
Ilundar wrote:

Tal had 4-2 against Fischer.

Fischer fans say 4-4 but they have to include 2 blitz games from Herceg Novi 1970.Not very serious......


 Tal won all 4 of his games against Fischer when Fischer was 15 and Tal was in his prime. After those 4 games Tal never beat Fischer again. The blitz games were played when both were adults and yes they should count since Tal even won a world blitz championship in the 80s in Canada with even Kasparov playing ! Fischer won both blitz games against Tal and if you are gonna count the wins against a 15 yr old Fischer then certainly the blitz games should count when both were adults.

TheOldReb

Tal himself said he beat Fischer when he was Tal but Fischer was not yet Fischer ! Tal's 4 wins came in 1959 and he won the world championship in 1960 , clearly a 15 year old Bobby was not playing chess at Tal's level yet. They met again only 2 years later in 61 and again in 62 and Fischer won both games, even though he was still just a teen. Surely Tal had not lost much strength from 1960 to 1961 ? It would seem to me that an "overall record" would include all tournament games they had played with each other. If you mean only classic games then perhaps you should specify only classic games. Yes, in classic games alone Tal is +2 against Fischer. In classic games alone both Spassky and Petrosian have 50% score with Kasparov.