Also, while I'm here, why is my quote box all messed up?
In Vote Chess we should be able to see the tally before we vote ourselves
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no you shouldnt get to see the box because the way vote chess works is each member contibuting on thier own and not one person spamming a move in the discussion.
Personally I feel that if the voter knew option c leads to a loss, he/she wouldn't vote it anyway. But I agree with Narz, in that when we see vote(s) for bad moves we'll be prompted to explain n discuss instead of vote-and-forget. And this would help players understand, learn and improve while upholding the true meaning behind vote chess itself; to learn from your fellows.
I say this is a bad idea. Poor moves that get an initial lead will end up being played simply out of sheer momentum and people will come to rely on become even more disengaged from the discussion.
If anything, there needs to be a means by which participation in the discussion phase is encouraged -- perhaps something like a moratorium on voting for a time after the other team has made their move so that discussion has an opportunity to occur before any votes are made.
nedwardgnap wrote:
no you shouldnt get to see the box because the way vote chess works is each member contibuting on thier own and not one person spamming a move in the discussion.
But discussion is the key to good vote chess games.
TheGrobe wrote:
If anything, there needs to be a means by which participation in the discussion phase is encouraged -- perhaps something like a moratorium on voting for a time after the other team has made their move so that discussion has an opportunity to occur before any votes are made.
This is how our team likes to play (and with good results so far 
) however it's not always possible in 6 & 12 hour games & even in longer games sometimes the winning variation isn't discovered until near the end of the voting time limit. I personally try to wait until a few hours before the time limit to vote if I can, except in the opening when I just go ahead & vote.
yes when used properly but what happens is people just spam
Nc3 62%
a5 22%
b5 16%
VOTE NC3!!!
it happens all too much as a matter of fact in the experienced members vs young guns we lost because people mindlessly voted because of these posts
TheGrobe wrote:
nedwardgnap wrote:
no you shouldnt get to see the box because the way vote chess works is each member contibuting on thier own and not one person spamming a move in the discussion.
But discussion is the key to good vote chess games.
Indeed. Narz's People have a 100% Vote Chess record thus far owing to good internal communication and a penchant for discussion amongst the players.
What I was thinking there was that giving the creator of a vote-chess game the ability to set the moratorium up as a part of the game's settings then they could actually enforce what you've described above based on what ever parameters they choose.
Incidentally, if your team is holding off on voting until the very end of your time limit, doesn't that kind of undermine the value of a preview of votes so far? There'd be no (or very little) data until the last minute, and then it would all come in quickly and be comitted right awway, at which time it would have been exposed anyway under the current functionality.
I'd say we shouldn'n
If we did see what other people were voting, there would be those that would cast their vote just to be lasy.
Feb 12, 2009
0
#12
I agree that the moves already voted for should be visible. I take the point that some people will just vote with the flow but they are the sort of people who don't read the discussion anyway. The one advantage of seeig the moves which have been voted for is that someone can point out that move X is a mistake. If a mistake is getting votes but hasn't been mentioned in the forum then no-one has a chance to correct it. If people wait until late on the vote having read all the discussion it is often too late to turn round a blunder that people have been voting for unbeknown to the active group.
The strongest teams I've been lucky enough to play with discuss well, wait to vote and keep themselves informed of what moves have been voted for by use of people who voted early.
MM78 wrote:
I agree that the moves already voted for should be visible. I take the point that some people will just vote with the flow but they are the sort of people who don't read the discussion anyway. The one advantage of seeig the moves which have been voted for is that someone can point out that move X is a mistake. If a mistake is getting votes but hasn't been mentioned in the forum then no-one has a chance to correct it. If people wait until late on the vote having read all the discussion it is often too late to turn round a blunder that people have been voting for unbeknown to the active group.
The strongest teams I've been lucky enough to play with discuss well, wait to vote and keep themselves informed of what moves have been voted for by use of people who voted early.
What I had in mind. Plus this allows players to point out mistakes without having to commit themselves through voting, especially when they themselves haven't yet found the best move but do know what moves are bad etc.
Allowing users to change their votes (up until the time limit, of course) would be really helpful here as well.
Feb 12, 2009
0
#15
There are two scenarios here.
First is the "public" vote game in which hundreds of people participate. There is a strong tendency for people to vote for whatever move is first in the vote box without reading any of the discussion. I have already seen a detrimental effect of this when moves were voted for which had not even been discussed and the runaway vote had a definite negative impact on the progress of the game.
The second scenario is in the vote game at the group level where a small number of players who know each other are planning a move. In this instance it would be helpful, not only to see the votes but to be able to change your vote in the event new information becomes available.
In general I think these should be options which could be decided when setting up the game. Especially at the group level.
No we should not. In vote chess, the point is to teach myself the error of my thinking; not win the game, nor join the majority vote. In depth analysis.. I may not be that smart.. I think.
drmr4vrmr wrote:
No we should not. In vote chess, the point is to teach myself the error of my thinking; not win the game, nor join the majority vote. In depth analysis.. I may not be that smart.. I think.
That's exactly why we should be able to see the tally before voting. To learn our own errors, the best way in terms of vote chess is to have your teammate point out, and explain, why moves that you thought were good, are actually not. This comes through discussion, which leads me back to my earlier point that seeing votes for faulty moves will prompt players who know they're not good moves to point this out to the rest of the team.
Without this function, all that happens is that you vote for a move, later find that another move gets the majority, and you move along wondering what was wrong with the move your voted. Hardly the way to teach yourself the error of your ways now, eh?
I see no reason to hide the current vote count when people who have already voted can (and frequently do) post the current vote count anyway. I think it would actually improve discussion, but the fact is nobody knows how it will affect the discussion.
The vote count should only be visible after the move has been played. Knowing which move has the lead ruins the discussion.
Feb 12, 2009
0
#20
Valid points on both sides of course, but this is why I no longer play public vote chess, only games where I am in a small group. Vote chess can at its best teach you a lot, at it's worst it will make you homicidal. The people who pop by, vote without reading, post that the leading players' recommended move is rubbish without any supporting analysis and then bugger off not bothering to read any replies...drive by voters, should be pushed off a cliff imho.
I quote my teammate Panzar below :
"No, you can not see the votes before you have cast your own vote. That was my point. You should be able to. As for the need... well a simple example (remember, most teams don't have discussions like we do and even if they did many vote before any discussion anyway):
Move a) winning, but difficult to see the whole line
Move b) pretty good, but not winning
Move c) looks good superficially but does in fact leads to a loss
Suppose the score is 10 votes for c, 10 votes for b and 2 votes for a with 23 players in the team. If I knew that I wouldn't vote for move a, I would tip the balance to get move b played rather than move c."